God commands disobedience to his word

[Matt Janes]

I chronically hear Christians say that God would never command people to go against his word... I really can't believe people that know scripture hold on to that belief... it's easily proven False yet the myth remains strangely prevalent.

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Numbers 21:9 ►
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

God commanded Moses to do the exact opposite of what he formerly commanded.


Not to mention, it looks a bit satanic.

God can do whatever he wants to.

God can and has had people do the opposite of what scripture says. The first Christians did the opposite of what the Mosaic law commands. Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or remove one word from the law. God changes his mind a lot

So, if a church does something that the Bible says not to do, who knows if it was actually inspired by God? Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word, I wouldn't put it past him to be responsible for the decisions of church councils

The Bible alone Doctrine is built on a premise that blows itself up! The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

 

[Matt Janes]

I love you all it's just I constantly hear Christians calling other Christians pagan based on a "Bible alone" premise, and I seek unity and tolerance among Christians!

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The prohibition here is not the making of the graven image, it is the bowing before them and worshipping them.

Moses made the brazen serpent in obedience to God’s command. He did not, as did Aaron(Ex. 32), make the graven image to be worshipped.

 

[Matt Janes]

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The prohibition here is not the making of the graven image, it is the bowing before them and worshipping them.

Moses made the brazen serpent in obedience to God’s command. He did not, as did Aaron(Ex. 32), make the graven image to be worshipped.

He said not to make a graven image

 

[Matt Janes]

I worship God and hope he changes his mind on some issues. Moses got God to "repent of the evil he planned to do to Israel".

So yes, I love and worship a Good who I disagree with...so did Moses

 

[utilyan]

There are principles to be held higher priority, even against the appearance of his own word.

But really God is those principles themselves speaking from your heart.


For example Jesus REFUSES to help a Pagan woman who has a sick Pagan daughter.
The disciples are sick and tired of her whining and whining.
He tells her "no" three times and on top of that he calls her a DOG.

She doesn't give up even after God tells her NO three times.

Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

That's a compliment going to someone who is not christian, not even Jewish, and its not even about her its her pagan daughter.



Matthew 15

21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

 

[delizzle]

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

The original Hebrew word was murder, not kill. There is a big difference. But eh...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I chronically hear Christians say that God would never command people to go against his word... I really can't believe people that know scripture hold on to that belief... it's easily proven False yet the myth remains strangely prevalent.

God says thou shall not kill and then orders the Israelites to kill many people including women, children, and babies that were without sin.

Actually, it's "thou shalt do no murder", not "thou shalt not kill". Further, in context, it's clearly referring to man taking the prerogative that belongs only to God to take human life. God, as the creator and owner of all human life, is well within His authority to authorize governments to take human life. Romans 13 is a good example of this.

Also, there are no "women, children, and babies that (sic) are without sin".

Here is an example:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

As usual, you only posted that portion of the text you believe confirms your belief. The very next verse tells us that He's speaking specifically of graven images that are the object of worship.

Not to mention, it looks a bit satanic.

Given that it represents Christ, I'd be careful what I call "Satanic" if I were you.

God can and has had people do the opposite of what scripture says. The first Christians did the opposite of what the Mosaic law commands.

Yes, because the Old Covenant had been fulfilled. What would have been the point of Christ freeing them from the law, only for them to place themselves back under the law?

Yet Jesus said he came not to abolish the law or remove one word from the law. God changes his mind a lot

See Matthew 5:18. The key word here is, "...until all is fulfilled", which is precisely what Christ did on the cross. It's why He said "It is finished".

Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word

Only to you.

The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

Circular logic. If you didn't believe in "Bible alone" (by which, I assume, you're erroneously referring to the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura), you wouldn't keep citing the Bible as your source.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I worship God and hope he changes his mind on some issues. Moses got God to "repent of the evil he planned to do to Israel".

Actually, this was explained to you in another thread. God did not "change His mind".

God's action was contingent, based on Israel's actions.

In other words, God said, "I will do X. But if Israel does Y, then I will not do X.", not "My previous idea wasn't the best solution, so I've decided to do something else".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually, it's "thou shalt do no murder", not "thou shalt not kill". Further, in context, it's clearly referring to man taking the prerogative that belongs only to God to take human life. God, as the creator and owner of all human life, is well within His authority to authorize governments to take human life. Romans 13 is a good example of this.

.

Hmm... a man who showed me much kindness when I was a child was ordered to shoot German soldiers during WW2 & it haunted him for life

 

[thatbrian]

I worship God and hope he changes his mind on some issues. Moses got God to "repent of the evil he planned to do to Israel".

So yes, I love and worship a Good who I disagree with...so did Moses

You worship the "god" in your mirror.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Hmm... a man who showed me much kindness when I was a child was ordered to shoot German soldiers during WW2 & it haunted him for life

As it does all soldiers, but that isn't really relevant to this discussion.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

He said not to make a graven image

He also said, "thou shalt not eat." If we allow ourselves to take verses out of context or quote incomplete passages, we can attribute to God many things.

In the passage you use as your proof text, God is giving them instructions about worship. This passage is not dealing with the actual practice of making graven images. That graven images would be made is very clear in verse 5 when God said, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them." The implication is clearly that graven images would exist.

In fact, God Himself ordered the making of graven images that would sit over the mercy seat. Solomon, in I Kings 7, had many graven images to decorate the Temple. Nowhere do we find that God is displeased with this. Why? Because these were not made to be worshipped. They were not bowing down to these images. They were not viewing these images as if they were gods.

Contrast that with Exodus 32:4: "And he [Aaron] received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt."

This is a clear violation of God's commandment. Simply carving out a child's toy or a decorative piece for the tent is not. Nor is following God's instructions to make a brazen serpent that will be a type of Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As it does all soldiers, but that isn't really relevant to this discussion.

Well I think it was relevant to the memory that in his heart, he felt he was murdering The German soldiers he was ordered to shoot were unarmed prisoners of war. It was his officers that gave him the orders to be carried out so he did not question them however that image of shooting them stayed with him all his life... it wasn’t his having his leg blown off, it wasn’t the seeing umteenth
Casualties... he was a sniper so shooting an enemy in the field did not consern him, he was doing his job. Rather it was the memory of shooting those unarmed men that was the haunt.

So how does one reconcile that... I’m just wondering as I remember this mans pain...may he finally Rest In Peace.

 

[Matt Janes]

You all clearly didn't get my point.

I see a lot of Christians calling other Christians pagan. The Bible leads people to opposite conclusions.

Much of the Old Testament is no longer to be followed.

Yet Christians use Old Testament verses to call other Christians pagan. If God was so offended with what those Christians do, surely he could have left such disapproval in the New Testament.

I've studied where the Bible came from. It was put together at the councils of Rome, Carthage, and hippo, when a "pagan" church decided the NT Canon of scripture that you accept.

How do you know this Pagan Church gave you the correct Canon?

Also, my point is clearly obvious, and that is that the apostles didn't test everything to see if it lined up with scripture. God can do whatever he wants to.

How do you know God doesn't approve of crucifixes and prayers to the Saints? God has been known to introduce new methods of bringing grace to the Earth.

If God would heal people through a bronze serpent, how do you know he doesn't heal somebody through a crucifix or soul in Heaven?

God condemned summoning spirits of the underworld's to gain information, fortune telling, sorcery, and Magic. He condemned the forces of Darkness. Context is everything.

People who invoke the host of heaven aren't dabbling in a occult powers of Darkness.

 

[Matt Janes]

I'm trying to create Christian Unity. I see nothing disrupting Christian Unity more than the Sola scriptura Doctrine.

The Sola scriptura Doctrine destroys itself because the Bible proves it to be false

 

[Matt Janes]

I don't like to see Christians calling other Christians Pagan based on some outdated Old Testament verse that's taken out of context and was for Israel at that time. Much of the policies of ancient Israel were not supposed to be followed by Christians. It also is not clear which parts of the Old Testament we're even supposed to follow.

Picking old Testament verses out of context to condemn the faith of another Christian (Who belongs to a church that put the first Christian Bible together), is not right. Scripture says to agree with one another.

Sorry to break the news to you, but the book you cherish belonged to a pagan Church Century after Century before Baptists even existed. If you hate that church, why do you cherish the book that originally belonged to that church?

 

[thatbrian]

I don't like to see Christians calling other Christians Pagan based on some outdated Old Testament verse that's taken out of context and was for Israel at that time. Much of the policies of ancient Israel were not supposed to be followed by Christians. It also is not clear which parts of the Old Testament we're even supposed to follow.

Picking old Testament verses out of context to condemn the faith of another Christian (Who belongs to a church that put the first Christian Bible together), is not right. Scripture says to agree with one another.

Sorry to break the news to you, but the book you cherish belonged to a pagan Church Century after Century before Baptists even existed. If you hate that church, why do you cherish the book that originally belonged to that church?

You will have little idea what the new covenant is or the need for it unless you understand the old covenant first. Far from obsolete, it tells the story of redemptive history. It speaks of Christ (Luke 24)

 

[Matt Janes]

How God doesn't work in one time in history, is how he might work in another way at another time in history.

If a Christian believes they are receiving healing and grace from the mother of God or the souls in heaven , how do you know God is not choosing to bestow Grace on them through his mother or redeemed sanctified souls and angels in heaven....by that means?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

How God doesn't work in one time in history, is how he might work in another way at another time in history.

If a Christian believes they are receiving healing and grace from the mother of God or the souls in heaven , how do you know God is not choosing to bestow Grace on them through his mother or redeemed sanctified souls and angels in heaven....by that means?

Because God has already said He doesn't do that.