It is against his nature to do so. He created us with a free will to choose to praise him, or choose not to praise him.
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God Controls Hearts and Thoughts as He Says in His Word
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It is against his nature to do so. He created us with a free will to choose to praise him, or choose not to praise him.
but just how do you define the term/concept of "free will?"
And I do hold that the Lord does NOT send all the thoughts to us, that He formed all our thoughts etc, as that would make us robots and Him the master BUT
Do hold that whatever thoughts we have, God did either directly send them to us, or else He permitted them to come unto us!
Up to us to accept the "God" thoughts, and let those others pass on by and not 'stick" to us!
I draw conclusions from what you have said and they are not false, as you will see from what you continue to post.
Your deterministic outlook on life, including God controlling everything good and evil traces evil back to God. How then can God not be the author of sin with that kind of theology.
That statement in and of itself denies the deity of Christ. Think it through. Christ is God! God cannot punish God! Christ came willingly to this earth. Christ said: "I lay my life down; I take it up again; No man takes it from me." This is God incarnate suffering for our sins. If you deny this you deny the deity of Christ.
Rather, think of it this way. God loved you enough that if you were the only one of the face of this earth God would have come and died just for you. It was out of love, in spite of the sins of others.
Yes, God allowed others to sin. I never denied that. But your statement is that he controlled the actions of others including sins and the very thoughts of others. You don't simply say he allows sin, you go to the extent that he controls it. That is going too far.
Christ chose freely to come and die for our sins. I hope you believe that. It is an example of free will.
We are to be conformed to the image of Christ. Part of that is the free will to make good choices. I hope you can see that.
He did allow sin. I never denied that. He didn't force them. Why do you think I don't believe that God allowed Judas to sin? Did I say that? No. What I did say is that Judas didn't have to sin. He could have chosen not to sin. Jesus gave him every chance to repent, but he didn't. In saying that I am agreeing that he allowed him to sin. Can't you see that?? And at the same time he had the free will to choose to betray him. He did, and then saw the evil he did and was sorry (but not repentant), and went out and hung himself (of his own free will). He chose to do it. And God allowed it.
As long as you are adamant that Christ as God did not choose of his own will to come out of love and die for our sins you deny his deity, and make him only a man. That is heresy. It is not simply the Father sending a "human" son. It is God himself choosing to come to earth and dying for our sin. Let's be straight on that.
Then be clear on what you say. It wasn't simply a human that died for our sin; it was God himself. He was the God-man.
It is an attempt for you not to spread heresy by accurately stating the truth. God came from heaven. God died for our sins. God did it out of love. God did it out of his own free will.
Yes, what is the most famous verse in all scripture?
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus came for the express purpose of dying for our sins.
It is one thing to say God controls events, and quite another to say God controls our thoughts. It is scriptural that God does control some events.
An example is that the Jews tried several times to kill Jesus.
Jn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The religious leaders especially wanted to kill Jesus well before he was actually crucified. But this was not God's plan. Jesus had to die on the Passover. So, in this case Jesus himself thwarted the Jews attempt to kill him.
But that is the point. God would not have allowed the idea to kill Jesus in the minds of men before the appointed time. This shows the intent to kill Jesus arose from their own hearts and minds.
If God is controlling every single event, then why did Jesus say he "overcame" the world?
Jn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
If every event is controlled and determined by God, then who did Jesus overcome? His Father?
If God controls everything that Satan does, then why are we at war against the powers of darkness? Satan is merely following God's determined will and is actually a servant of God if your view is correct.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
The scriptures descibe Christians as soldiers who are at war. Who are we fighting against if God is controlling everything? Wouldn't we be fighting against God himself? If Satan and the powers of darkness are simply fulfilling God's dictates, then when we fight against Satan wouldn't we be fighting against God?
It is nonsensical to believe God is warring against himself. Therefore, Satan and sinners must have true freedom.
Yes, what is the most famous verse in all scripture?
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus came for the express purpose of dying for our sins.
It is one thing to say God controls events, and quite another to say God controls our thoughts. It is scriptural that God does control some events.
An example is that the Jews tried several times to kill Jesus.
Jn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The religious leaders especially wanted to kill Jesus well before he was actually crucified. But this was not God's plan. Jesus had to die on the Passover. So, in this case Jesus himself thwarted the Jews attempt to kill him.
But that is the point. God would not have allowed the idea to kill Jesus in the minds of men before the appointed time. This shows the intent to kill Jesus arose from their own hearts and minds.
If God is controlling every single event, then why did Jesus say he "overcame" the world?
Jn 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
If every event is controlled and determined by God, then who did Jesus overcome? His Father?
If God controls everything that Satan does, then why are we at war against the powers of darkness? Satan is merely following God's determined will and is actually a servant of God if your view is correct.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
2 Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )
The scriptures descibe Christians as soldiers who are at war. Who are we fighting against if God is controlling everything? Wouldn't we be fighting against God himself? If Satan and the powers of darkness are simply fulfilling God's dictates, then when we fight against Satan wouldn't we be fighting against God?
It is nonsensical to believe God is warring against himself. Therefore, Satan and sinners must have true freedom.
That is the Lie that both Satan and Adam bought into, that they were able to operate and function fully automous, apart from God and His Will...
How did that get them?
Just saying there by definition ONLY God can be the only truely "Free Willed" Being to exist, or else he cannot be in the Biblical sense really God!
I agree with most of what you say. Let's look at this verse in context of what other Scripture says, especially the Gospel of John.Yes, what is the most famous verse in all scripture?
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Two chapters earlier, John introduces the book by saying:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
--Christ is the Word, God, the second person of the triune Godhead. There can be no question about this.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
--This is the incarnation. God was made flesh. God, the Word. He became flesh and dwelt among us. I believe that John now describes what he saw on the Mount--the transfiguration--Christ: full of grace and glory.
Now back to John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
--Christ did not become "the only begotten Son," until after he came to earth. The word "begotten" refers to "unique" and he is unique because of his virgin birth, the way that he came into this world. He would have never been called "begotten" had he not come into this world as flesh.
So it was God himself that came to earth. Once on earth he was the Son submitting himself to the Father. How can we dissect the trinity?
That is the Lie that both Satan and Adam bought into, that they were able to operate and function fully automous, apart from God and His Will...
How did that get them?
Just saying there by definition ONLY God can be the only truely "Free Willed" Being to exist, or else he cannot be in the Biblical sense really God!
Then you believe it was God's will that Adam and Eve sinned?
This is not complicated, either Adam and Eve did what they wanted to do when they sinned, or else they did what God wanted them to do.
Which is it?
And why do you believe only God can have free will? Do the scriptures tell you that? I can give you scripture that says man has his own free will.
Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Here God himself said man has HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. You do understand what the word "own" means don't you? Do you understand what the word "voluntary" means?
Now, I have just shown you from scripture where God himself said man has his own voluntary (free) will.
Now, you show me where the scriptures say man does not have his own voluntary will.
Did God control your thoughts when you typed them, or was it the devil?That is the Lie that both Satan and Adam bought into, that they were able to operate and function fully automous, apart from God and His Will...
How did that get them?
Just saying there by definition ONLY God can be the only truely "Free Willed" Being to exist, or else he cannot be in the Biblical sense really God!
Just wondering because you do believe it is one of the two?
Or did you type them of your own free will? Did you choose out of your own free will to make this post?
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I agree with most of what you say. Let's look at this verse in context of what other Scripture says, especially the Gospel of John.
Two chapters earlier, John introduces the book by saying:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
--Christ is the Word, God, the second person of the triune Godhead. There can be no question about this.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
--This is the incarnation. God was made flesh. God, the Word. He became flesh and dwelt among us. I believe that John now describes what he saw on the Mount--the transfiguration--Christ: full of grace and glory.
Now back to John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
--Christ did not become "the only begotten Son," until after he came to earth. The word "begotten" refers to "unique" and he is unique because of his virgin birth, the way that he came into this world. He would have never been called "begotten" had he not come into this world as flesh.
So it was God himself that came to earth. Once on earth he was the Son submitting himself to the Father. How can we dissect the trinity?
DHK, I know we don't always perfectly agree, but I agree with you 100% here. Jesus is God!
Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
I have spent some time with JWs before, I know all their arguments.
preacher4truth
Active Member
If God is the one who is putting those thoughts in there...
Are they wrong if God is the one doing it, or doesn't He have the right to do such?
He can't answer the questions obviously. They've already been answered in this thread anyhow. Sometimes you learn some things by opening up that Bible and taking a look inside!!! I think it would be good for gersh to get himself into the Bible and get some answers for himself, and also take some notes of things I've said in here, for some good doctrinally sound material to pass on to others. Something fresh and thought out for all of them.
Now, who is the one who can't answer the post??Did control your thoughts when you typed them, or was it the devil?
Just wondering because you do believe it is one of the two?
Or did you type them of your own free will? Did you choose out of your own free will to make this post?
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Do you realize how many posts in this and other threads have gone unanswered by you?
Then you believe it was God's will that Adam and Eve sinned?
This is not complicated, either Adam and Eve did what they wanted to do when they sinned, or else they did what God wanted them to do.
Which is it?
And why do you believe only God can have free will? Do the scriptures tell you that? I can give you scripture that says man has his own free will.
Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Here God himself said man has HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. You do understand what the word "own" means don't you? Do you understand what the word "voluntary" means?
Now, I have just shown you from scripture where God himself said man has his own voluntary (free) will.
Now, you show me where the scriptures say man does not have his own voluntary will.
Satan And Adam/Eve had what you term "free will" once they chose to sin and rebel against God, nature became corrupt and sinful, since than, all humans born under "bondage of the Will" not "free willed" as originally at creation of man!
Did control your thoughts when you typed them, or was it the devil?
Just wondering because you do believe it is one of the two?
Or did you type them of your own free will? Did you choose out of your own free will to make this post?
Do you doubt the Bible that says BOTH God and satan can send thoughts your way?
And I chose to post what was sent in, for God does allow /permit me "limited free will"
DHK, I know we don't always perfectly agree, but I agree with you 100% here. Jesus is God!
Jn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
I have spent some time with JWs before, I know all their arguments.
Well...
I am most definitely NOT a JW.....
preacher4truth
Active Member
Then you believe it was God's will that Adam and Eve sinned?
This is not complicated, either Adam and Eve did what they wanted to do when they sinned, or else they did what God wanted them to do.
Which is it?
And why do you believe only God can have free will? Do the scriptures tell you that? I can give you scripture that says man has his own free will.
Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
Here God himself said man has HIS OWN VOLUNTARY WILL. You do understand what the word "own" means don't you? Do you understand what the word "voluntary" means?
Now, I have just shown you from scripture where God himself said man has his own voluntary (free) will.
Now, you show me where the scriptures say man does not have his own voluntary will.
Obviously Adam and Eve only did what God allowed them to do. After all who created them and knew all things would happen? Or, do you still hold the erroneous view that God doesn't know all things?
Answer that, does God know all things, or not Winman? Yes or No?
Your passage of Scripture is poorly interpreted by yourself. It by no means shows man has a free will. Anyone who worships God in this manner, of a true heart is one God has reserved unto Himself to do so.
Back to your problem of the past: Does God know all things, yes or no?
Most of your theological problems stem from your answer, and from your proof-text theology.
I see another problem, you spend a lot of time with JW's. No winners in that meeting.
Answer the question Winman.
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Now, who is the one who can't answer the post??
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
Do you realize how many posts in this and other threads have gone unanswered by you?
See my post replies...
Please answer these if you can...
What is your ultimate basis/source of salvation, uourself or God?
Do you have "real free will" or just a "type" Of it?
can God overule as he desires his creation?
Is it wrong for God to assert His soverignity at the time/place that He so sees fit to?
I expect I will be waiting a long time for his response.See my post replies...
Please answer these if you can...
What is your ultimate basis/source of salvation, uourself or God?
Do you have "real free will" or just a "type" Of it?
can God overule as he desires his creation?
Is it wrong for God to assert His soverignity at the time/place that He so sees fit to?
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preacher4truth
Active Member
See my post replies...
Please answer these if you can...
What is your ultimate basis/source of salvation, uourself or God?
Do you have "real free will" or just a "type" Of it?
can God overule as he desires his creation?
Is it wrong for God to assert His soverignity at the time/place that He so sees fit to?
I'll be awaiting his answers so I can savor how it turns into a conversation of bathsheba somehow, and how you jesusfan are one who is concluded to not believe some foundational doctrine, then into you've stated such, yet such statement never to be found.
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As I just pointed out, you fail to answer people's posts. It wasn't hard to demonstrate that was it? It shows a lack of respect. Do you want to try again? The post is still there.
Not lack of respect, just busy in/out of the house!
which posting # please!
I expect I will be waiting a long time for his response.
and far as I knowm did answer those specificaly directed to me, which one didn't I?
and far as I knowm did answer those specificaly directed to me, which one didn't I?
I showed you a verse where God himself says men have their "own voluntary will" (Lev 1:3).
I asked you to show me any verse that says man does not have his own voluntary will.
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