God Gave Wine: What the Bible Says About Alcohol

[saturneptune]

I'm hoping you are speaking tongue in the check with the last sentence.
Anyhoo.. here are some thoughts to ponder...

It is usually at this point where many who state 'moderation' was what all the early Christians held to and that is wasn't till the Temperance movement in the early 1900's that anyone ever held a contrary view, that they didn't drink regardless of moderation. Timothy, a disciple of Paul, proves there was a contention even back then as scripture reveals him as one who abstained (to the point of self hurt medicinally) from alcohal. Thus this shows and proves this contention was even in the early church, and even in the time of the apostles.

Now, we do not know 'why' Timothy abstained we only know he did. Paul's statement of take a 'little' wine is not a notation for moderation, but a very small amount to help with his stomach ailments as it specifically states.

Another interesting point is that if Timothy would not even drink alcohal in a small amount for his health, it should be of note he would not have drank alcohal for the Lord's Supper. This is conjecture of course but it is based on the fact that even for his own health he would not touch it, so it is not far a field to infer his not using fermented wine at the Lords supper, in fact it is nearly implied he would not touch it in anything.

I think another point to note is that Paul is not trying to convince Timothy he is right but is encouraging Timothy. This I believe is important to undrestanding 'potentially' why Timothy isn't drinking. It isn't that Timothy thought drinking itself was sinful or else Paul would not be encouraging him to go against his conscience but would instead FIRST have to fleshout out why drinking is not a sin, in and of itself. It 'appears' it is a conscience choice to not drink due to some other reason (I would assume much as Pauls statement - for the sake of a the weeker brother, especially with the Greeks and Pagans with who drank in great quantities - but that again is assumption so I digress)

Pauls statement shows there is nothing wrong with abstaining, but do so in a practical way that allows you to honor God according to your conscience but to use it as limitedly necessary (if circumstances call for it) that does not stand in opposition of scripture/conscience or the reasons for your not participating in it.

Anyway.. just some thoughts that neither are exactly for or against, but interesting notations and considerations

I do not drink. However, you cannot make a case for abstinence based on Scripture.

 

[Allan]

​

I do not drink. However, you cannot make a case for abstinence based on Scripture.

Actually it is very easy to make a case, and a strong one at that, on abstinence from scripture. However what one cannot do is make a case that drinking alcohol, in and of itself is a sin.
(not referencing drunkenness)

 

[Luke2427]

Please don't. A rant that takes a full minute to read is plenty for one day.

It took you a full minute to read that? HAHAHA!

 

[Luke2427]

Well, that is the problem, food does not affect one's judgment, while alcohol does. This is the problem with "responsible" drinking, drinking tends to make one act less responsible.

See, these are things we should not have to tell you. You ought to be intelligent enough to know these things if you are going to debate them.

Food DOES affect your judgment if you let it. MORE PEOPLE DIE OF FOOD ADDICTION THAN ALCOHOL ADDICTION.

HEART DISEASE is the number one killer of Americans.

The research is extremely easy to do. Don't ask me to do it for you. Everybody with half a brain already knows this to be true.

I am against alcoholism AND gluttony. But don't pretend that moderate eating is ok and moderate drinking is not.

 

[Luke2427]

Read that last line, that is addiction. No one ever thinks they are going to become dependent on alcohol or drugs, but millions of people do.

And HUNDREDS of millions do NOT.

Whole NATIONS drink wine and beer like we in the south drink sweet tea and those nations have fewer drunkards than this nation that is still reeling from the redneck, backwater, hillbilly STUPIDITY that was the temperance movement and prohibition.

 

[Luke2427]

Thank you both very much for the reply.
I guess my wording is odd, but I'm not sure how to verbalize my desire. I'm trying to be a good Christian, but I also like alcohol. I was looking for a definitive answer on what is acceptable (by Christ) with regard to consumption of alcohol. As the thread has continued on, I'm getting the picture that it's not totally clear what's acceptable.

When I said "Joining Jesus", I meant going to Heaven when I die. I thought my wording on that was clear, so my apologies on that one. My bad.

Bob

Bob, it is totally clear for all intelligent people. It is totally clear to all thinking people that alcohol in moderation is COMMENDED in the scriptures and that phariseeism and the condemning of moderation is CONDEMNED in Scripture.

Jesus said that it is not that which goes into a man that defiles him but that which comes out of him.

The Bible says that GOD made the wine which makes merry the heart of man.

God literally TOLD Israel in Deuteronomy to go and "BUY STRONG DRINK" and rejoice before the Lord.

Do not listen to ignorant people. Grow in knowledge and enjoy that which God himself gave you to enjoy.

Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil.

 

[Luke2427]

Was Noah still a good man? Of course. Did Noah go to heaven? Yes. But alcohol did bring shame and embarrassment on him. That is what alcohol does.

You'll never get it. I've never seen anyone as blind as you.

ALCOHOL does not do this. INTEMPERANCE does it. It is not about what you take into you- its about what is already in you.

Alcoholics have a problem with their hearts.

I don't blame guns for killing people- I blame sin.

And I don't blame alcohol for killing people- I blame sin.

This is something a first grader in Sunday School should understand.

 

[Luke2427]

I do not drink at all because I cannot find any place in which I could drink it or purchase it that to do so is a good testimony.

Then you lead an EXTREMELY sheltered life.

 

[Luke2427]

​

Actually it is very easy to make a case, and a strong one at that, on abstinence from scripture. However what one cannot do is make a case that drinking alcohol, in and of itself is a sin.
(not referencing drunkenness)

No you can't. Not if you know beans from apple butter about hermeneutics.

If you do, then you know that different genres of biblical literature have to be interpreted differently so you would never try to establish doctrine from a book like Proverbs.

And if you don't have Proverbs, then you don't have a single passage that could even be ABUSED sensibly to condemn the moderate consumption of alcohol.

There is one other option- that is if you mean by "abstinence" the RIGHT to abstain.

But what a waste of TIME that position would be since no one on EARTH begrudges ANYONE their RIGHT to not drink.

But what EVERY Christian should condemn with untethered fervency is this notion that drinking moderately is wrong.

If you allow Pharisees to have that inch, then you might as well give them the whole. If they can pick ONE thing to condemn without Bible then they can pick anything else. We might as well be Mormons at that point.

 

[saturneptune]

No you can't. Not if you know beans from apple butter about hermeneutics.

If you do, then you know that different genres of biblical literature have to be interpreted differently so you would never try to establish doctrine from a book like Proverbs.

And if you don't have Proverbs, then you don't have a single passage that could even be ABUSED sensibly to condemn the moderate consumption of alcohol.

There is one other option- that is if you mean by "abstinence" the RIGHT to abstain.

But what a waste of TIME that position would be since no one on EARTH begrudges ANYONE their RIGHT to not drink.

But what EVERY Christian should condemn with untethered fervency is this notion that drinking moderately is wrong.

If you allow Pharisees to have that inch, then you might as well give them the whole. If they can pick ONE thing to condemn without Bible then they can pick anything else. We might as well be Mormons at that point.

It is amazing the lack of understanding of this principle on this board especially by those called to be pastors and Christian leaders. Most have been to years of college, seminary, and have studied Scripture, Greek, and Hebrew in precise detail.

Yet, for all of that, there seems to be this irresistible urge for Christians to make other Christians in their own image instead of letting the Holy Spirit guide that Christian into the image of Christ. If a Pharisee type Christian sees another Christian that the Holy Spirit has lead to a different conclusion about a certain issue, then they take it upon themselves to declare the Holy Spirit inept and take on the job themselves. A good example from Scripture is Abraham not believing Sarah could fulfill the promise to give him a son to carry on the Hope, so he decided to help God and find another woman.

We see this exact pattern repeated in the KJVO people. Since they believe the KJV is the only true Bible, everyone else should also. Since they came to the conclusion that King James should have been the 13th disciple, then so should everyone else.

When are Christians going to learn that God is sufficient in Himself to make each of His children in His image, and He does not need any help from another member of His creation.

The Holy Spirit will never lead any true Christian to a belief contrary to Scripture. That means we are united in Christ for the essentials of the Gospel. Others, like alcohol, fits the individual plan and unique character God has given each of us.

To illustrate that, take what you and I have posted. I do not drink and have explained why. You do on occasion. We both are in agreement with how Scripture treats drinking, yet were lead to different places in our lives. We understand that about each other, and do not feel and extra Biblical urge to correct each other, because there is no need. Now contrast that with others on this board that do not drink like me. There is a wide gap about how we view the teaching of Scripture on this subject.

This in fact on a wider scale is very vital in understanding the Christ like life and Christian liberty. It was the essence of the gap between Christ and the Pharisees. This is not a simple good vs evil subject, like the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other. It is a matter of Who controls your life. Is it the Holy Spirit, guiding you day by day, or is it your inner self. The inner self is characterized by memorizing man made rules, obeying them or attempting to obey them through their own power, then finally, making sure everyone else does also.

Although not a hard and fast rule, the more Pharisee like someone is, the greater the chances are that they are a gossip, a glutton, and pull a stunt at a restaurant after church like a recent thread addressed.

So what were some of you theological scholars doing during the endless hours of seminary, playing with your I phones on Facebook?

 

[Luke2427]

It is amazing the lack of understanding of this principle on this board especially by those called to be pastors and Christian leaders. Most have been to years of college, seminary, and have studied Scripture, Greek, and Hebrew in precise detail.

Yet, for all of that, there seems to be this irresistible urge for Christians to make other Christians in their own image instead of letting the Holy Spirit guide that Christian into the image of Christ. If a Pharisee type Christian sees another Christian that the Holy Spirit has lead to a different conclusion about a certain issue, then they take it upon themselves to declare the Holy Spirit inept and take on the job themselves. A good example from Scripture is Abraham not believing Sarah could fulfill the promise to give him a son to carry on the Hope, so he decided to help God and find another woman.

We see this exact pattern repeated in the KJVO people. Since they believe the KJV is the only true Bible, everyone else should also. Since they came to the conclusion that King James should have been the 13th disciple, then so should everyone else.

When are Christians going to learn that God is sufficient in Himself to make each of His children in His image, and He does not need any help from another member of His creation.

The Holy Spirit will never lead any true Christian to a belief contrary to Scripture. That means we are united in Christ for the essentials of the Gospel. Others, like alcohol, fits the individual plan and unique character God has given each of us.

To illustrate that, take what you and I have posted. I do not drink and have explained why. You do on occasion. We both are in agreement with how Scripture treats drinking, yet were lead to different places in our lives. We understand that about each other, and do not feel and extra Biblical urge to correct each other, because there is no need. Now contrast that with others on this board that do not drink like me. There is a wide gap about how we view the teaching of Scripture on this subject.

This in fact on a wider scale is very vital in understanding the Christ like life and Christian liberty. It was the essence of the gap between Christ and the Pharisees. This is not a simple good vs evil subject, like the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other. It is a matter of Who controls your life. Is it the Holy Spirit, guiding you day by day, or is it your inner self. The inner self is characterized by memorizing man made rules, obeying them or attempting to obey them through their own power, then finally, making sure everyone else does also.

Although not a hard and fast rule, the more Pharisee like someone is, the greater the chances are that they are a gossip, a glutton, and pull a stunt at a restaurant after church like a recent thread addressed.

So what were some of you theological scholars doing during the endless hours of seminary, playing with your I phones on Facebook?

Just to be honest with you... I don't think any of the teetotalers are educated. You basically CANT BE educated and a teetotaler at the same time.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I wish I had the money to own and operate a micro brew...I would love that. My wife's relatives from Germany were brewmasters and her Scot's relatives are into pure and aged Scotch whiskey which is great. God gave us these brews and to enjoy....and no tea totling miscreant is going to convince me otherwise. Sorry boys but its over.

 

[Winman]

You'll never get it. I've never seen anyone as blind as you.

ALCOHOL does not do this. INTEMPERANCE does it. It is not about what you take into you- its about what is already in you.

Alcoholics have a problem with their hearts.

I don't blame guns for killing people- I blame sin.

And I don't blame alcohol for killing people- I blame sin.

This is something a first grader in Sunday School should understand.

I've never heard anyone make as many stupid statements as you do.

You talk about "responsible" drinking, when it is known that alcohol impairs judgment. After one drink you tend to be just a little bit less responsible than you were before you took that drink. Take another drink and you will be less responsible still.

This is exactly what the Proverbs passage on drinking shows, alcohol deceives a man and mocks a man. It makes a fool of a man.

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Scripture says whosoever is deceived by strong drink is not wise. That pretty much fits you to a "T" Luke.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Just to be honest with you... I don't think any of the teetotalers are educated. You basically CANT BE educated and a teetotaler at the same time.

Education has nothing to do with it, but being effeminate has everything to do with it. They are afraid that they cant control themselves because most of the time they are ruled by emotion & not by discipline. A disciplined drinker knows his strengths & weaknesses but these effeminate are not disciplined, not in control of themselves. Thats why they impose strict regulations on everyone.....see because if nobody can enjoy their lives then they are happy. Its like me as a diabetic saying to my family, because I am diabetic then nobody in this house can eat cake, or ice cream or put jam on their toast.......because I'm diabetic & your tempting me to go straight for the cookies.......leave off jerk, its your problem, learn to discipline yourself & stop trying to make us miserable for your problem. AND if you disciplined yourself more, you'd be a better person....more healthy, more positive, more IN TOUCH with the world. So stop being a whining bunch of little girls & grow up!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[evangelist6589]

I've never heard anyone make as many stupid statements as you do.

You talk about "responsible" drinking, when it is known that alcohol impairs judgment. After one drink you tend to be just a little bit less responsible than you were before you took that drink. Take another drink and you will be less responsible still.

This is exactly what the Proverbs passage on drinking shows, alcohol deceives a man and mocks a man. It makes a fool of a man.

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Scripture says whosoever is deceived by strong drink is not wise. That pretty much describes you to a tee Luke.

Depends on the content of the beverage. Do you think that all alcohol is the same? It is not, and when I worked at the beer factory I learned this and I also learned that all alcohol sent to the state of Utah had to be of a certain %. Have you ever had a Mikes Hard Lemonade LIGHT? If not why not? Its only 2.5% and certainly far less than other beverages. Why cant someone enjoy a Mikes while eating dinner, or watching a ballgame? What is wrong with that? You use strawmen tactics against alcohol and need to do some research before you post. But since you have a hard time with this I wil help you.

Table Wine - 14% alcohol
Fortified wines (port, sherry) - 18-24%
Hard liquor (whisky, gin, vodka) - 40%
Typical serving - 6 oz of wine; less of other beverages (shot glasses) - all contain ~0.6 oz of alcohol (3-5x more than biblical wine).

Mikes Hard Lemonades are far less than any of this. I think that Luke would be against Hard Liquor, Fortified wines, and other beverages with lots of content.

Below is a site for you to read showing you the benefits of drinking in moderation.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/alcoholandhealth.html

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Depends on the content of the beverage. Do you think that all alcohol is the same? It is not, and when I worked at the beer factory I learned this and I also learned that all alcohol sent to the state of Utah had to be of a certain %. Have you ever had a Mikes Hard Lemonade LIGHT? If not why not? Its only 2.5% and certainly far less than other beverages. Why cant someone enjoy a Mikes while eating dinner, or watching a ballgame? What is wrong with that? You use strawmen tactics against alcohol and need to do some research before you post. But since you have a hard time with this I wil help you.

Table Wine - 14% alcohol
Fortified wines (port, sherry) - 18-24%
Hard liquor (whisky, gin, vodka) - 40%
Typical serving - 6 oz of wine; less of other beverages (shot glasses) - all contain ~0.6 oz of alcohol (3-5x more than biblical wine).

Mikes Hard Lemonades are far less than any of this. I think that Luke would be against Hard Liquor, Fortified wines, and other beverages with lots of content.

Below is a site for you to read showing you the benefits of drinking in moderation.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/alcoholandhealth.html

How much sugar is in that Lemonade? Sugar will kill ya ....[vulgar language removed]

 

[Winman]

Depends on the content of the beverage. Do you think that all alcohol is the same? It is not, and when I worked at the beer factory I learned this and I also learned that all alcohol sent to the state of Utah had to be of a certain %. Have you ever had a Mikes Hard Lemonade LIGHT? If not why not? Its only 2.5% and certainly far less than other beverages. Why cant someone enjoy a Mikes while eating dinner, or watching a ballgame? What is wrong with that? You use strawmen tactics against alcohol and need to do some research before you post. But since you have a hard time with this I wil help you.

Table Wine - 14% alcohol
Fortified wines (port, sherry) - 18-24%
Hard liquor (whisky, gin, vodka) - 40%
Typical serving - 6 oz of wine; less of other beverages (shot glasses) - all contain ~0.6 oz of alcohol (3-5x more than biblical wine).

Mikes Hard Lemonades are far less than any of this. I think that Luke would be against Hard Liquor, Fortified wines, and other beverages with lots of content.

Below is a site for you to read showing you the benefits of drinking in moderation.

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/alcoholandhealth.html

OK, and here is a short and simple video on the long term affects of alcohol on your body.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=PA1gDo4OXp4&v=5Kxg5MEq8EQ

Enjoy.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Craig Ferguson's Testimony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI-BhQGwDO8

 

[annsni]

I've never heard anyone make as many stupid statements as you do.

You talk about "responsible" drinking, when it is known that alcohol impairs judgment. After one drink you tend to be just a little bit less responsible than you were before you took that drink. Take another drink and you will be less responsible still.

This is exactly what the Proverbs passage on drinking shows, alcohol deceives a man and mocks a man. It makes a fool of a man.

Pro 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Scripture says whosoever is deceived by strong drink is not wise. That pretty much fits you to a "T" Luke.

All of my life I have been able to limit myself to one drink - and still have judgment left to say that I want something else. One drink does not mean that you will be an alcoholic.

 

[annsni]

Pure vanilla extract must have an alcohol content of 35%. I wonder if those against alcohol avoid using it.

Oh and alcohol does NOT fully cook off when used in cooking - even if taken to a full boil or flame.