God Got The Memo

[Joe]

local YMCA. When I got certified, the field was changing requiring certification and a degree in physiology. I didn't have the latter, so I didnt' pursue this career. I have a lot of knowledge about exercise now, though

I bet you do, that's great. You have probably helped many people, more than you realize.

YMCA, that's not surprising. You seem like you would be good with kids. We don't have them here.
Only expensive gyms, which are pretty fancy. Tried it a few times, but couldn't get into it.
Too bad about the excessive amount of education added at the last minute.

 

[DHK]

Yet more Arminian drivel .

Drivel? Well, that is just your opinion. Words like that portray what kind of opinion (and character) a person has.
"Arminian"? Now that is a false accusation, as I have said many times on various threads and forums that I am neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian.

From the "forcing" twaddle to the merely knowing in advance shallow theology . God merely knows the choices of individuals . He is idly standing by waiting for puny man to make decisions which affect his eternal destiny.

That man is puny you are right on. The psalmist said "What is man that thou art mindful of him?" Why should God even care about puny little man? What are we in the sight of a holy and majestic God. We are nothing, but only deserving of the wrath of God, and eternal separation from Him in a place called Hell. Yes, we are puny.
It is true that God knows the choices of individuals. If He didn't, He wouldn't be God. Are you suggesting that He is less than omniscient? I feel sorry for you.
Whenever you put words in another's mouth that he didn't say, then I will assume they are your own beliefs. Does God stand idly by? I didn't say that. So is that what you believe? That is not my God. I remember Elijah mocking the prophets of Baal, saying that their God was idle or sleeping. Maybe you are worshiping the wrong God??

Get this . You would not be saved if God was just on the sidelines awaiting your decision regarding salvation

So now you believe God is on the sidelines. Again I never said that, so that must be your belief. You really need to quote a person as to their beliefs, or you just get yourself into hot water. In your world is everyone a football player and God the cheerleader. That is what you have just described. And that is not what I believe. It must be your religion.

. God mercifully intervened and caused you to be born from above

Nope, sorry; I am not a robot. God did not force me to do anything. He knew ahead of time what decisions I would makie, but he didn't "cause me" or force me to make them. I would almost put that in the class of damnable heresies, except that I am not permitted to on this board. God never created robots. My son is able to do that. He is a computer "Geek," and a pretty smart one at that. Suppose he does build one and programs it to bow down and worship and say continuously: "I worship DHK, I worship DHK, I worship DHK?" That would be no different than the God that you worship would it? We are all programmed just like computers. That is what you said. You said: God...caused you to be born from above."
Those are your words. God forced me, just as a robot, to be born again. I had no choice. I was forced. It was a forced salvation. I am just a robot, a machine, without any mind of my own. Right?

. He is the major actor on the pages of the Bible , in HIStory -- the works . If he did not "influence" you with respect to your salvation you would have remained a reprobate . God is not passive -- He is proactive as I have said before .

And I don't disagree with that.

God's foreknowledge is not merely knowing about "their decision" -- He knows them personally -- intimately , as RB has said . The Bible doesn't say that God forsees someone's faith -- He forsees THEM . The people themselves are the objects of His foreknowing . He doesn't choose us because He foresees that we will believe -- but He does forsee that we will believe -- because He has elected us .

Nonsense. He foresees that we will believe because he is omniscient. He knows the number of hairs on my head, even though they keep decreasing. He knew that before the foundation of the world. He foresaw it would happen. He knew that the dog next door would jump over my fence into my yard because it is bigger than his. He knew it before the foundation of the world. He is omniscient and knows all things, and therefore can foresee all that will happen in the future. All that does happen: our rejection or reception of Christ as Saviour is not "based" on his foreknowledge, but "according to" his forekowledge as the Bible states it to be. It simply states that it is according to, that is, he knows about it before it happens, as he knows all things--even if you brush your teeth properly.

God determines who shall and who shall not be saved .

It is not plain at all. Man chooses whether or not he will receive or reject Christ as Saviour. It is his choice. God made him with a free will. And that is one of the plainest teachings of the Bible. "Whosoever will may come." That teaching is found many many times throughout the Bible.

That is one of the plainest teachings in the Bible . It's entirely up to Him -- as much as that grates on the sensibilities of many

The reason so many end up in Hell is that they choose to reject Christ and his sacrificial work on the cross; and that is the only reason.

. It's a shame that churches which pride themselves on being Bible-centered deny these truths -- that bears out the depravity of humankind .

I wonder who is the one that really is denying Biblical truth on this matter.

 

[DHK]

Does God determine the bounds of one's habitation? What about those in the most remote parts of the world who have never heard about Jesus? Is there another way to be saved?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I don't claim to understand everything that the Bible says but I do believe it. If God promised to provide salvation to all men, then He has done just that.
He left the salvation of the entire world in the hands of just 12 men. He had no back up plan. What if they had failed? The Great Commission is given to us as much as it is given to them.

 

[skypair]

skypair....

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. There is only ONE way to be saved..

On the face of it, I agree with you. I disagree with me. But it's all about TIMING, Linda.

For instance, were the OT saints saved same as us? Same gospel? Same indwelling Spirit when they were saved?

Now let's change it up --- how about infants who die? Do they go to hell like the Calvies say?

There is one way to be saved at this time so far as we who have heard the gospel know. And Paul's saying "if anyone preaches another gospel..." kinda presumes we are familiar with his gospel, right?

Romans 1:19-20 leads me to believe that there are "justified" saints who are NOT saved by the gospel of grace who 1) were saved in the OT way, 2) innocent (infants and mentally challenged) or 3) justified despite that the gospel WE know is not preached to them (American Indians, etal.).

There is a "line" between "just" and "sanctified," Linda. The "sanctified" are raptured -- the "just" are resurrected into the MK to see Jesus and choose for themselves.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I am anti-missionism. Please note the ism at the end.

Apparently you don't like "commissions" too well, eh? Mt 28:19. I agree, it is NOT everyone's mission. But you needn't denigrate those who feel called, pinoy! They are part of the "body," too! Who are you to judge another man's servant?

Secondly, of what purpose is the preaching of the gospel for a missionary to go out ?

But if the purpose of "going out there" is to preach the gospel in order for people to be saved from God's wrath and saved in the eternal sense, forgive me, with all due respects, you can go your way, because that is not what the gospel is all about.

Better take another look at Paul's ministry, then! He went where no one had heard and with the specific purpose that they be CONVERTED. Better look at what he said he did in 1Cor 15:1-4, Rom 4:3-5, etal.

God's people will get to heaven, with or without preachers, whether or not they are PB's and embrace PB doctrine, or whether or not they are Calvinists, or Arminians, or semi-Pelagians, or "Biblicists", because Jesus Christ, and Him alone, made it a reality for His people by His blood, death and resurrection.

So you totally deny Rom 10:14? You are trying to totally "unhinge" the "Sheepgate," aren't you, pinoy! Shame on you. Mind what God has told YOU to do and leave alone what He has told others!

Would you believe at 62 I took up weight lifting, and am actually gaining muscle over fat ? My lattissimus dorsi is forming, and my shoulders, man, I've never had them as sharp as they are today.

You're only a year ahead of me and that's great! I wish more saints would keep themselves in shape and avoid all the ailments I'm seeing among my peers! But please -- everyone can't be the "butt" of the "body" and so we don't all need to see yours! :laugh:

skypair

 

[skypair]

As a certified personal trainer, I believe it

Muscle doesn't age...we do. You can gain muscle at any age. Congrats on the results :thumbs:

Good on ya' Webbie!!

I do believe we glorify God by our appearance and I have my own program at 61 as well! "Temple-keeping," I call it (1Cor 3:17)! :jesus:

If anyone else is reading this, I had a heart problem at 28 that forced me to quit flying. God "showed me the way out" when the doctors couldn't!! There was NO known resolution for my trigeminy and suceptibility to tachycardia! But within 9 months I overcame (God's leading) the issue and flew 30 more years professionally!

But I want to tell you this -- pray for the "way out" and believe in it once you "see" it! Mine was quitting smoking, drinking, and starting a jogging routine that had me working out through slush and snow but SUCCESS!!

Anyone out there blessed by this ---- keep on keepin' on! God bless!

skypair

 

[Linda64]

On the face of it, I agree with you. I disagree with me. But it's all about TIMING, Linda.

For instance, were the OT saints saved same as us? Same gospel? Same indwelling Spirit when they were saved?

The blood sacrifices in the OT were foreshadows of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ. They didn't save, they just "covered" sin. They were "justified by faith" (Hab. 2:4)---they looked forward to the Redeemer and knew that without the shedding of blood there was no remission.(Lev. 17:11; Heb. 9:22) They were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The book of Hebrews (especially chapter 11) describes those OT saints who died without receiving the Promise (Christ). It is my belief that they will be resurrected after the Tribulation and will enter into the Millennial Kingdom with Christ.

Now let's change it up --- how about infants who die? Do they go to hell like the Calvies say?

I do NOT believe that infants will go to hell---I think you asked me this before. As you know, I am not a Calvie.

There is one way to be saved at this time so far as we who have heard the gospel know. And Paul's saying "if anyone preaches another gospel..." kinda presumes we are familiar with his gospel, right?

That's correct...anyone who preaches "another" gospel...let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8-9). "Another" gospel is a gospel which adds works to grace and points people away from Christ. I think we are in agreement here...right?

Romans 1:19-20 leads me to believe that there are "justified" saints who are NOT saved by the gospel of grace who 1) were saved in the OT way, 2) innocent (infants and mentally challenged) or 3) justified despite that the gospel WE know is not preached to them (American Indians, etal.).

Only the OT saints (before the cross) are the "justified" and "righteous". Infants and mentally challenged have no sin imputed to them---they have no knowledge of the gospel...when they die, they will be in the presences of the LORD...they do not end up in hell.

I believe (and we had a Sunday School lesson on this) that those (excluding infants and the mentally challenged) who have never heard the gospel are still held accountable before God (according to Romans 1:19-20)....those verses say "they are without excuse". However, with the technology we have today, the gospel is being preached to the "uttermost part of the earth". (Acts 1:8) That's why we have missionaries. Actually, we are all missionaries. Jesus told His Apostles to "preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15)...that is the Great Commission.

There is a "line" between "just" and "sanctified," Linda. The "sanctified" are raptured -- the "just" are resurrected into the MK to see Jesus and choose for themselves.

skypair

There is only ONE body of Christ/Church...Christ is the Head/chief cornerstone/foundation, etc. I also believe that the OT saints will be "sanctified"...they will "receive the promise" when they are resurrected into the MK. I believe we are in agreement that the OT saints are not, nor ever will be, the Church. The Church was never promised an "earthly" kingdom as Israel was. Two different groups with different functions in the MK....right?

 

[Dale-c]

I do NOT believe that infants will go to hell---I think you asked me this before. As you know, I am not a Calvie.

So how DO infants go to heaven?

 

[Linda64]

So how DO infants go to heaven?

Sin is not imputed to an infant or young child who has no knowledge of it. This doesn't mean that a child is born w/o sin---so don't misquote me, Dale. At a certain point in the child's life he becomes personally responsible before God for his relationship with Jesus Christ. The Bible does not say at what age or point this occurs...it varies from person to person. The only Scripture reference I can think of which states what happens to an infant at death is the story of David and Bathsheba's child (the result of David's adultery with Bathsheba). 2 Samuel 12:22-23.

 

[jdlongmire]

Excuse me for my persistent ignorance.
Do you mean God created some people already subject to destruction and some for glory ?
Do you have Scripture for these thoughts ?

Hi, sorry for jumping in late - just starting to follow threads here again - hope this is not a derail.

I think this is a good start on answering your question:

Double predestination is a synonym for election and reprobation. Both are controversial, but reprobation is more controversial. That’s because reprobation is really the acid test of one’s commitment to election.

Reprobation is simply the flip side of election. There are two lines of evidence for reprobation: direct and indirect:

1.Direct evidence in support of double predestination or reprobation comes from such verses of Scripture as Isa 6:9; Mal 1:2-3; Mt 11:25-26; Lk 2:34; Jn 3:19; 9:39; 12:39-40; Rom 9:11-13,17-22; 11:7; 1 Thes 5:9, 2 Thes 2:11; 1 Pet 2:6-8, and Jude 4.

2.Indirect evidence in support of double predestination or reprobation comes from the fact that reprobation is the logical corollary of election: if everyone will not be saved, and those that are to be saved are saved because God chose to save them, then the lost are damned because God chose not to save them, but rather, to reject them and condemn them.

from here

The question really revolves around what you think God is doing - trying to save the most folk He can and failing with most or is He working a plan to glorify Himself through Christ and gather up His elect so that He is glorified through the demonstration of His mercy and judge the reprobate so that He is also glorified through the administration of His justice?

I think if you examine the breadth of Scripture - the latter is more true than the former.

Blessings!

 

[skypair]

The question really revolves around what you think God is doing - trying to save the most folk He can and failing with most or is He working a plan to glorify Himself through Christ and gather up His elect so that He is glorified through the demonstration of His mercy and judge the reprobate so that He is also glorified through the administration of His justice?

Welcome jd. :wavey:

If you think about it, God doesn't glorify Himself by only having the few saved that are today. In fact, the world rather ridicules believers and God for being so outspoken and 'weird.'

So in both cases God is "failing" by human standards and saying that He fails at saving all means that He does not want to save everyone is a 'smokescreen' that tries to hide one's ignorance about what the plan is!

skypair

 

[PK]

I am glad to know that Christ uses the base or simple things for a simple minded person like myself.

Two Adams:

In the first Adam all fell.
In the Second Adam all can be saved. Not saying all will but He came for everyone that fell in the first Adam.

 

[jdlongmire]

Welcome jd. :wavey:

Thank you!

If you think about it, God doesn't glorify Himself by only having the few saved that are today. In fact, the world rather ridicules believers and God for being so outspoken and 'weird.'

So in both cases God is "failing" by human standards and saying that He fails at saving all means that He does not want to save everyone is a 'smokescreen' that tries to hide one's ignorance about what the plan is!

skypair

Not sure what you are saying, exactly or how it interacts with what I posted?

Scripture clearly teaches that God delayed His just wrath on Mankind, so that many (the elect, whom he foreknew before time began) would be saved according to His mercy in a way that would glorify Himself through the covenant made between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit before creation was.

Contextualized in this way, the whole teaching of Scripture (God's plan-book) is consistent and clear. God is sovereign, man is responsible - Christ is triumphant, in love for the elect and justice for the reprobate.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

I don't claim to understand everything that the Bible says but I do believe it. If God promised to provide salvation to all men, then He has done just that.
He left the salvation of the entire world in the hands of just 12 men. He had no back up plan. What if they had failed? The Great Commission is given to us as much as it is given to them.

Or all in this text could mean all races of men instead of all men individually. If you take it to mean all men individually, then God has failed because not all men have heard of Christ. Or shall we call all the missionaries home?

 

[webdog]

Or all in this text could mean all races of men instead of all men individually. If you take it to mean all men individually, then God has failed because not all men have heard of Christ. Or shall we call all the missionaries home?

That text says the grace of God THAT bringeth salvation ...

This is referring to Truth, the same truth the reprobate exchange for a lie (Romans 1)

 

[DHK]

Or all in this text could mean all races of men instead of all men individually. If you take it to mean all men individually, then God has failed because not all men have heard of Christ. Or shall we call all the missionaries home?

I don't think so. Go back and read the context. It is far too personal.

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
--This fact teaches us that we should live soberly, etc.
All men does not mean all races.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--Man, even on an individual basis, is without excuse for knowing the true God, the triune Godhead which therefore includes Jesus Christ. He is without excuse.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
--God has put His law in the hearts of every man, no matter where they live, no matter how remote they may be. His law is written in their hearts. They do know right from wrong.
Furthermore their conscience also bears witness to the truth. Why does man feel guilty when he does wrong. He is condemned by his own conscience which bears witness to the truth. Thus they end up accusing each other, and trying to excuse themselves for the wrong done, which only shows the depravity of the human heart.
But they know that they are sinners. They know that they have broken the law, God's law. Therefore, they are without excuse.
God will reveal himself to any man who honestly wants to know him. He did so with Cornelius. He continues to do so today.

 

[jdlongmire]

God will reveal himself to any man who honestly wants to know him.

Because He knew them first.

 

[DHK]

Because He knew them first.

That statement doesn't make sense. It flies in the face of God's omniscience and implies that God is ignorant of the unsaved.

 

[nunatak]

I think his statement makes sense DHK. I think no man can honestly want God unless His grace had enabled them to do so. Thus, in that respect, He knew them, or shall I say, foreknew them.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Since Jesus said He would draw ALL men unto Him, I would say His grace has been extended to all.

Jesus gave the invitation to whosoever will. He is willing that none perish, but that ALL repent.