God Got The Memo

[Rippon]

Limited Atonement---Christ didn't die for all...He died only for the "elect". Then you say, "If" Christ died for all, then all would be saved. On the contrary...the atonement is not limited by some rejecting Christ's sacrifice on the cross on their behalf. An inheritance is not reduced in value because some of the heirs refuse their share.

That doesn't limit God in any form or fashion . Christ died for a certain set of people , that's His right as God . The only limitation here is non-Cals such as yourself who have put your version of what God can or can't do in a box of your own creation .

 

[Rippon]

I don't see anything about intimacy here. Peter is stating facts. Those that Peter was writing to were chosen according to his foreknowledge. That simply means omniscience. God knew aforetime who would be saved and who would not be saved. He in no way would affect their choice. He would not force them one way or another. He would not influence them to choose to receive or reject. They of their own accord would make the choice. He just knew about it in advance. He knew aforetime. It was his foreknowledge.

Yet more Arminian drivel . From the "forcing" twaddle to the merely knowing in advance shallow theology . God merely knows the choices of individuals . He is idly standing by waiting for puny man to make decisions which affect his eternal destiny .

Get this . You would not be saved if God was just on the sidelines awaiting your decision regarding salvation . God mercifully intervened and caused you to be born from above . He is the major actor on the pages of the Bible , in HIStory -- the works . If he did not "influence" you with respect to your salvation you would have remained a reprobate . God is not passive -- He is proactive as I have said before .

God's foreknowledge is not merely knowing about "their decision" -- He knows them personally -- intimately , as RB has said . The Bible doesn't say that God forsees someone's faith -- He forsees THEM . The people themselves are the objects of His foreknowing . He doesn't choose us because He foresees that we will believe -- but He does forsee that we will believe -- because He has elected us .

God determines who shall and who shall not be saved . That is one of the plainest teachings in the Bible . It's entirely up to Him -- as much as that grates on the sensibilities of many . It's a shame that churches which pride themselves on being Bible-centered deny these truths -- that bears out the depravity of humankind .

 

[Linda64]

That doesn't limit God in any form or fashion . Christ died for a certain set of people , that's His right as God . The only limitation here is non-Cals such as yourself who have put your version of what God can or can't do in a box of your own creation .

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Matthew 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Jesus said He came to seek and save the lost...to call sinners to repentance. Scriptures say we are ALL lost and we are ALL sinners. Christ died for ALL and WILL save whosoever calleth upon the name of the LORD! (not just a group of "elect"). BTW Rippon, what makes you so sure you are one of the "elect"? Did you wake up "saved" one morning?

 

[Rippon]

Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Matthew 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Jesus said He came to seek and save the lost...to call sinners to repentance. Scriptures say we are ALL lost and we are ALL sinners. Christ died for ALL and WILL save whosoever calleth upon the name of the LORD! (not just a group of "elect"). BTW Rippon, what makes you so sure you are one of the "elect"? Did you wake up "saved" one morning?

You really must be experiencing memory loss . I have covered this in detail a number of times with you and your husband .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

News Flash, Rippon...

There are plenty of people in the Word of God who clearly are saved and are not called 'elect'.

When Peter stood in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost and preached, one of the great promises made that day was "whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved". He did not say whosoever shall call upon the Lord may or may not be saved. No, he said 'whosoever,' which included everybody there... even the scoffers. And he said 'shall be saved.' That my friend is a promise, not to the elect only, but to all who will call upon the name of the Lord.

The philippian jailor was not told he may or not be saved if he believed.

In Romans 10, Paul did not say whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord may or may not be saved.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Why no mention of the elect in any of these passages? Paul, in the last passage I quoted, stated that it was ungodly men who forbid the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles that they might be saved. He did not say to certain of the gentiles. No, he included all gentiles.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God wants all men to be saved, not just the elect.

John wrote to Gaius... a saved man, yet never addressed him as elect. Aquilla and Priscilla, who expounded the Word of God more clearly, were not mentioned as elect. Surely you are not saying they were not saved?

You need to rethink your beliefs concerning who God offers Salvation to, they are contrary to the Word of God.

 

[Linda64]

You really must be experiencing memory loss . I have covered this in detail a number of times with you and your husband .

Nothing wrong with my memory, Rippon. Your Calvinistic gospel is contrary to the Word of God and we both reject it!

 

[EdSutton]

That doesn't limit God in any form or fashion . Christ died for a certain set of people , that's His right as God .

Actually, Christ died for more than one "certain set of people". That includes -
A. "all"

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. (II Cor. 5:14-15 - NKJV)

A1. A subset of "all" included in this is "them" - "those who live"

15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. (II Cor. 5:15 - NKJV)

B. "us"

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom. 5:8 - NKJV)
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. (I Thess. 5: 9-10 - NKJV)

"us" has two subsets - those "still sinners", and those "to obtain salvation", as I have embolded above in the verses.

C. "the ungodly"

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (Rom. 5:6 - NKJV)

BTW, any not liking these categories should take it up with the one God who not only "Got The Memo", but even "Gave The Memo" that He called "The Scriptures". I suggest He can, for a short time, bring His thoughts "down" to a level that can 'understand' your thoughts.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Reread my post. Omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive attributes.

And you know this - how?

Ed

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello...

What does redemption mean?

 

[pinoybaptist]

The "certain way" is for destruction with no chance at salvation.

Excuse me for my persistent ignorance.
Do you mean God created some people already subject to destruction and some for glory ?
Do you have Scripture for these thoughts ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Excuse me for my persistent ignorance.
Do you mean God created some people already subject to destruction and some for glory ?
Do you have Scripture for these thoughts ?

I asked Webdog these questions, but I guess he's out or something so let me continue with what I was trying to say which was interrupted. Had to drive my wife to her place of work.

The line of thought that God created certain persons for destruction with no chance of salvation is as ridiculous as the Double Predestination or Absolute Predestination doctrines of some Calvinists.

Honestly, I am getting more and more surprised at some Arminians.

Yesterday, I was driving home and was listening to Chuck Swindoll.

Now, Mr. Swindoll, IMHO, is one of the better preachers out there. I would rate this gentleman on a scale of 1-10 (with 10 as the highest) a 9 hands down. He is good at doctrinal as well as practical preaching.

Now, I don't know if Mr. Swindoll is Arminian or Calvinist, but I think he is more of the former.

At the end of his sermon, when he offered up his invitation to come and know Christ, he stated "if you're listening to this message, it is because God has predestined that at this time and day you would be listening to this message. You see, there are no accidents with God"..... or words to that effect. Surprise, surprise, surprise. Knocked me off the wheel.

If that were true, then that principle would apply to everybody who just happened to be listening in on that program, either by design, or by accident.

And, if as most on this board say were true, that every man has the innate ability in himself to respond to God's wooing apart from the work of God in that everyone's heart, then is it safe to assume that all the "unsaved" who were listening in on that sermon did come to a "saving knowledge" of Jesus Christ ?

If the answer is no, and I am almost sure no one will answer yes to that question I gave (but on this board ? who knows ?), then, why did they not respond to that "offer" of salvation in knowing Christ ?

Is it because God created them unto destruction, as webdog says ?
Is it because they do have the ability to respond but somehow, having the ability in themselves to do that which is positive, they also have the ability in themselves to choose the negative option, and God simply just let the chips fall where they may in their case ?
Or is it because God, in eternity past, knew them as the non-responsives and cared nothing for their souls and so chose not to interfere in their behalf and grant them the ability to respond ?

I will just stop right here and let the discussion roll from here on.

I just hope this discussion stays cordial and brotherly for everyone's benefit.

 

[reformedbeliever]

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I don't see anything about intimacy here. Peter is stating facts. Those that Peter was writing to were chosen according to his foreknowledge. That simply means omniscience. God knew aforetime who would be saved and who would not be saved. He in no way would affect their choice. He would not force them one way or another. He would not influence them to choose to receive or reject. They of their own accord would make the choice. He just knew about it in advance. He knew aforetime. It was his foreknowledge.

Does God determine the bounds of one's habitation? What about those in the most remote parts of the world who have never heard about Jesus? Is there another way to be saved?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

And you know this - how?

Ed

Go back and read what I wrote in Post #30 of this thread. It is logic.

 

[donnA]

Some people act as if we deserve a 'chance' for salvation. According to scripture we deserve death. Nothing more.
I can see why Paul wrote 'lest any should boast.' Because man thinks he saved himself, and he deserved it. And God has nothing to do with it.

 

[skypair]

That doesn't limit God in any form or fashion . Christ died for a certain set of people , that's His right as God .

Actually, rather than let God be God here, you have humanized His justice for your own convenience. Do you see that? It is YOU that changes the words "not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" into only for "a certain set of people." Can you see where you have perverted scripture? Or doesn't it matter as long as you have Calvinisms intentions and purposes in mind?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Hello...

What does redemption mean?

It will be that glorious day when Christ comes to claim His bride! The "Holy Spirit is the earnest [engagement ring] until the redemption of the purchased price."

skypair

 

[skypair]

At the end of his sermon, when he offered up his invitation to come and know Christ, he stated "if you're listening to this message, it is because God has predestined that at this time and day you would be listening to this message. You see, there are no accidents with God"..... or words to that effect. Surprise, surprise, surprise. Knocked me off the wheel.

If that were true, then that principle would apply to everybody who just happened to be listening in on that program, either by design, or by accident.

This is one of those things (program, sermon, radio means of outreach) that has been prayed over and God has ordained the answer before the show comes on. God often intervenes for good on behalf of believers who pray in the name of Christ.

... is it safe to assume that all the "unsaved" who were listening in on that sermon did come to a "saving knowledge" of Jesus Christ ?

No. God often makes blessings available to lost people. Scripture says in Romans that He does so hoping that they will come to a saving knowledge of His Son.

If the answer is no, ... then, why did they not respond to that "offer" of salvation in knowing Christ ?

You still have it in your mind that God "draws" only those who will be saved. That is not true and Rom 1:19-20 tells us so.

Is it because they do have the ability to respond but somehow, having the ability in themselves to do that which is positive, they also have the ability in themselves to choose the negative option, and God simply just let the chips fall where they may in their case ?

This is the closest explanation -- except giving them many opportunities to know Christ, which God does, would not mean that He gives up and doesn't love them as your "hands off" analogy suggests.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Is there another way to be saved?

There is. Throughout the OT, it was operative (but especially in the days of NOAH. Abraham, etal.). Here's how it works:

1) A person realizes a truth -- there is a God.

2) God offers more truth -- that He is above all and eternal.

Truth received brings more truth. Truth rejected brings darkness.

3) If a man will listen and believe/trust in God's truth, he will be justified before God yet knowing not Christ.

4) Such will be resurrected in the postrib "resurrection of the just" and receive Jesus just as we today have.

I cannot give you an example of one such person. Perhaps a missionary could -- of someone emerging from the jungle knowing God and ready to receive Christ upon the impartation of this further truth. This, of course, brings him under the grace/new covenant who will meet Christ at the pretrib rapture.

skypair

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Some people act as if we deserve a 'chance' for salvation. According to scripture we deserve death. Nothing more.
I can see why Paul wrote 'lest any should boast.' Because man thinks he saved himself, and he deserved it. And God has nothing to do with it.

Nobody deserves salvation. But Christ chose to die that ALL might live. But not all will come to Him that they might have life because they love the darkness rather than the light because their deeds are evil.

They choose to reject the one who offers them eternal life.

 

[Linda64]

There is. Throughout the OT, it was operative (but especially in the days of NOAH. Abraham, etal.). Here's how it works:

1) A person realizes a truth -- there is a God.

2) God offers more truth -- that He is above all and eternal.

Truth received brings more truth. Truth rejected brings darkness.

3) If a man will listen and believe/trust in God's truth, he will be justified before God yet knowing not Christ.

4) Such will be resurrected in the postrib "resurrection of the just" and receive Jesus just as we today have.

I cannot give you an example of one such person. Perhaps a missionary could -- of someone emerging from the jungle knowing God and ready to receive Christ upon the impartation of this further truth. This, of course, brings him under the grace/new covenant who will meet Christ at the pretrib rapture.

skypair

skypair....

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. There is only ONE way to be saved..

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Acts 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The O.T. saints looked "forward" to Christ....they were justified by faith... i.e. Abraham. The entire sacrificial system pointed to Christ.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The N.T. saints look "back" to Christ....they are also justified by faith...that faith must be placed "in Christ's finished work on the cross"

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The only true peace is in Jesus Christ (Jehovah Shalom)