God Got The Memo

[DHK]

You said that God doesn't give faith to believe. I pointed out that the Bible says God does give faith.

The Bible does not say that "God gives faith." You are reading that into the Scripture.

Every translation says essentially the same thing. And it says that God gives faith.

I believe you are the one that is reading things into the Scripture. Phil.1:29 says nothing about God giving faith. Faith is not the object of "given".

When it says "it was granted not only to to believe," that means that belief was one of the things granted.

"Granted to believe"? What does it mean? It means that one is privileged to believed. It in no way says that God gave faith. Nothing could be farther from the truth. God granted or gave the privilege for us to believe. He conceded to us that privilelege. Is it not a privilege to believe on Christ? Or does a Calvinist, on the basis that he is one of the elect, claim that it is his inherent right, and have no sense of humility at all before God?

"It is given - God concedes to you this privilege or advantage." by Barnes

I am not sure how you dispute this.

I am not sure how you cannot.

"Privilege" is not in the verse. You have changed Scripture.

You have added to the Scripture that which it doesn't say.

The Bible says that it is ours because God gives it to us.

Chapter and verse please? It certainly is not in Phil.1:29

 

[pinoybaptist]

I do not understand what the two of you, PL and DHK, are arguing about to the point where you are exchanging subtle and not so subtle sarcasm and insults (forgive me if you are in fact not being sarcastic and insulting to each other and it was just my reading).

It may be that I missed something.
Or it may be that because I am just a lowly brown monkey that was not born speaking the educated educated international language called English, I myself needs a lesson in it.

But from what little my brown monkey banana eating brain could grasp, whether God grants or God gives is I think not the point.
The point is that God is the source.
Neither the Calvinist nor the Arminian's faith has the characteristic of inherence.
Without God being the source, no man has God-directed faith, be it given or granted.

Man has faith, that is undeniable.
But it is the kind of faith that does not know the Creator God, whether by name or by attribute, and it is the kind of faith that is corrupt and decadent.
The faith that causes him to worship things that are created, instead of the Creator of the things he worships.

When God who is the source of real faith grants or gives him faith to believe, then he turns from believing and worshipping the things created to believing in and worshipping the Creator of these things.

The Arminians call it saving faith, as most Calvinists do, and I agree.
It is saving faith.
But not eternal saving faith, because eternal salvation does not have pre-conditions attached to it.
The eternal salvation of all God's people was accomplished by Christ and Christ alone, thru His atoning work, thru His redemptive blood, by the will of the Father.

Saving faith, granted or given by God, causes a timely salvation for God's people who hear the gospel in their lifetime, and causes them to turn from worshipping idols to worshipping the living God.

My own banana brained two bit worth.

 

[Rippon]

Nope, sorry; I am not a robot. God did not force me to do anything. He knew ahead of time what decisions I would makie, but he didn't "cause me" or force me to make them. I would almost put that in the class of damnable heresies, except that I am not permitted to on this board. God never created robots. My son is able to do that. He is a computer "Geek," and a pretty smart one at that. Suppose he does build one and programs it to bow down and worship and say continuously: "I worship DHK, I worship DHK, I worship DHK?" That would be no different than the God that you worship would it? We are all programmed just like computers. That is what you said. You said: God...caused you to be born from above."
Those are your words. God forced me, just as a robot, to be born again. I had no choice. I was forced. It was a forced salvation. I am just a robot, a machine, without any mind of my own. Right?

[/quote ]

I see you have remained on automatic pilot and fixated with your pet robot theme .

I had said that "God mercifully intervened and caused you to be born again ." You still refuse to yield to the biblical view . You apparently object to Bible texts such as :

He made us alive with Christ .

You who were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ .

It has been granted to you ... to believe on him .

He has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy , and he hardens whom he wants to harden .

He called us out of darkness into his wonderful light .

He chose to give us birth through the word of truth .

He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of light .

In his mercy he has given us new birth .

It does not depend on man's will or effort , but on God's mercy .

He made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ .


Now don't go robotic on me again . Yes , "He made His light shine on those who He wants to." He made . Doesn't that just tick you off ?" He knew what decisions I would makie" you said . No , He determined to save you if indeed you are born again .You were not able to will yourself into a saved state .

 

[Rippon]

God's foreknowledge is not merely knowing about "their decision" -- He knows them personally -- intimately , as RB has said . The Bible doesn't say that God forsees someone's faith -- He forsees THEM . The people themselves are the objects of His foreknowing . He doesn't choose us because He foresees that we will believe -- but He does forsee that we will believe -- because He has elected us .

God determines who shall and who shall not be saved .

I just want to clarify that what I said above DHK considers to be nonsense .

 

[skypair]

I now read that no one is elected until salvation.

Hi Tom,

Experientially, no one is elected until salvation. I think you would agree with this temporal view of things, right? Now back that up to X period of time before the foundation of the earth. In the mind of God was foreknown that decision and on account of that decision, He "elects" believers to a plan and purpose for the very reason that now He can relate to us, teach us, train us, command us, etc. ANY sinner can enter into the "election" of God by repenting to God through Christ.

And some who are saved are not "elect?"

You may be confusing "sanctification" with election, there. Basically, the OT Israel weren't spiritually sanctified. That is, they weren't indwelt by the Holy Spirit so God could not and -- it's obvious today -- has not fulfilled His purpose through them (evangelizing the world and ushering in the kingdom of Messiah). He will do that though, as He promised, after the church is raptured and they acknowledge Christ.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Post #3 of this thread you said : "He may be involved in our salvation ." If that is the extent of the Lord's involvement in our salvation -- your view is decidely unbiblical . Your view is very unscriptural and brings dishonor on the Name of the Lord .

From the thread : "Is Calvinism A False Doctrine" you said the following in post # 243 : " I believed . It was my faith . It was my decision . God did not force me to make this decision . HE KNEW ABOUT IT OF COURSE. BUT THE DECISION WAS MINE AND MINE ALONE ." [emboldened by me ]

Leaving God off on the sidelines in your view of salvation is wrong , wrong , wrong . I don't know of any non-Cal who would join you in this heterodox error .

Any conclusions I have made about your view being unorthodox is due to your specific statements .If I am making assumptions which are unwarranted point them out and tell me why you think your belief is biblical .

Your understanding of salvation is not up to the level of Arminianism except your forseen faith concept .

You don't even think that God is a participant in your salvation . Arminians think it is a shared effort between them and God . You just think that God is an observer -- with a possibility that He "may be involved in our salvation." Of course you don't reveal in what way He may be involved .

The Lord merely knows the choices you and others have made regarding salvation . "He knows about it ." But the final decision was yours and yours alone . You bask in your independence .

DHK , your view diminishes God and the True Sovereign He is portrayed in Holy Writ .Your view exalts man and demotes God . That is , to say the least -- God-dishonoring .

 

[Rippon]

Hi Tom,

Experientially, no one is elected until salvation.

Wrong again ! Ephesians 1:4 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 refute your blatant errors .

 

[skypair]

We discussed this once before and you acknoweldged you had no answer for the clear teaching of scripture where Jesus tells some "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep".

First, I have missed our discussions, canady. :wavey: Perhaps you too have forgotten many of them because I can't remember when I was last at a loss for answers! :laugh:

He didn't say they weren't his sheep because they refused to believe. He said that did not believe because they were not His sheep.

Basically, they weren't His sheep because they weren't believers in Him (the "sheep gate," 10:7, 9). When they enter in by Him, He is their "Shepherd" -- they are His "own sheep," 10:11. Now if we are sheep, we won't "follow, but will flee from" the "stranger," 10:5. And this is where I sorta see "denominationalism coming in.

As far as the use of parables is concerned, Jesus conveyed real doctrinal truth through the parables He spoke. It is too bad you dismiss what you refuse to believe.

Yes, but the doctrine itself is expressed literally elsewhere in scripture or else you have not intepretted the parable correctly.

We are not literally "sheep". But, as Jesus said, those that belong to Him know His voice. He calls them by name, and they respond by following Him.They were saved by believing the promises of God, having faith in the One who could keep His promises perfectly. That is the same way we are saved. We have faith in the person of Jesus Christ, who He is and what He did. Salvation has always been by grace, according to God's intervention in the lives of men.

I agree with most of this, really. All, I think, ecept the "intervention" bit. If by "intervention" you mean "calling," sure. But if you mean by "lifting them over" the sheep gate into the flock -- no. They either come of their own accord through the gate and become His sheep OR they are "thieves and robbers." That's what the parable teaches, jd.

You end up thinking salvation is something that orginated within yourself,...

Now how could you say that when I wasn't even born when Christ died??!!

You end up thinking your "free-will choice" made the difference in your life, instead of God's grace making the difference in your life. No thank you.

God would not have changed me if I had not chosen Christ. Do you believe that? What have I really got if I am "regenerated" but have no "belief/faith?" Basically, that is like saying that I was "regenerated" in infant baptism (which is precisely where this doctrine of "regeneration precedes faith" comes from) without being given faith yet --- that somehow I can kinda "ease into" faith as I grow.

Well, since Jesus is God, and is identified as the creator of all things in John 1 (as well as other places) I can confidently answer "yes". Was there another God in another age that I haven't heard about?

Right! "Since Jesus is God," WE "know God and glorify Him and thank Him. However, in the OT, God was NOT Jesus. They could "know God and glorify Him and thank Him -- God the Father -- but they had no forgiveness in their spirits. God resided "WITH them" in tabernacles -- but couldn't reside "IN them" as Holy Spirit. IOW, there was a "better thing" (Heb 11:40), a different and "new" covenant, given to us and to all who have or will come through Christ.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If the elect and the saints aren't necessarily the same people.

Ah! I think I understand where you misunderstood. God ELECTED Israel to His purpose of ushering in Christ/Messiah's kingdom and ruling with Him. Scripture calls them "elect" though most were not saved nor were they fulfilling God's purpose!

Yet the word "elect" is also used to describe saved NT believers -- and they ARE fulfilling the purposes of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in them and makes them "accessible" to God's leading.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Jhn 1:11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.


If these people (His own) were the elect, why didn't they receive Him?

Israel was the chosen children of God (much like Calvies claim for themselves today). Their presumption was that they were chosen to salvation and would recognize and believe on Messiah when He came. And, indeed, when He came, they could have chosen either way (are you getting the parallel here, Amy?).

But when Christ/Messiah was revealed, it was still up to them to believe or reject Him. Yes, Israel had been chosen to receive the promises, the giving of the law, the service, the covenants, etc. (Rom 9:4). All these were "sermons" drawing His "OWN" chosen, elect people" to RECEIVE Him. TEMPORALLY, they were His chosen, elect -- His own -- people (kinda parallel to the church now), Amy. But spiritually, most of them were not.

Today the church is Christ's OWN chosen, elect people to receive the new covenant in Christ -- but has the TEMPORAL church as a whole done so?

And what about individually, Amy? We may be part of the "elect" but have we each persoanlly RECEIVED Christ? Some of "elect" Israel DID receive Him and today we call them the 12 disciples. They became the SPIRITUAL church by their individual decisions, right?

I guess what might sum this up is God has always had an "elect" temporal people to accomplish His temporal purposes and individuals by whose "election" (ministries) He accomplishes His spiritual purposes.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Experientially, no one is elected until salvation.

Wrong again ! Ephesians 1:4 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 2 Timothy 1:9 refute your blatant errors .

Ah. So you HAVE always been saved! So you AREN'T "adopted" like the rest of us!

This puts a whole new light on my questions that you HAVEN'T been answering!

Are you the "He that is to come? Or should we look for another?" (Mt 11:3)

How did it feel to be "only begotten" and not have to be "born again" like the rest of us schmucks?

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

Ah! I think I understand where you misunderstood. God ELECTED Israel to His purpose of ushering in Christ/Messiah's kingdom and ruling with Him. Scripture calls them "elect" though most were not saved nor were they fulfilling God's purpose!

Yet the word "elect" is also used to describe saved NT believers -- and they ARE fulfilling the purposes of God because the Holy Spirit dwells in them and makes them "accessible" to God's leading.

skypair

Okay, I'm with you now. I just didn't remember that non-Cals hold that God elects on the basis of foreseen faith. So I see your view that when the faith is exercised, the election actually takes place. I disagree with the view, of course, but I see what you're saying.

I can also see why you and SFIC say that the elect and the saved are not necessarily the same. I disagree with that as well, but I'll let others debate.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Bible does not say that "God gives faith." You are reading that into the Scripture.

Seriously, man, it is right in front of your face. Read it.

Phil.1:29 says nothing about God giving faith. Faith is not the object of "given".

Read it again. It says God gave you, not only to believe, but also to suffer. Both belief and suffering are the grace gifts of God in the sentence.

"Granted to believe"? What does it mean? It means that one is privileged to believed.

No it doesn't. Your theology demands that, but Scripture doesn't teach that.

It in no way says that God gave faith. Nothing could be farther from the truth. God granted or gave the privilege for us to believe.

Where is "privilege" in that verse, or in the rest of Scripture?

Is it not a privilege to believe on Christ?

No, it's an obligation.

Or does a Calvinist, on the basis that he is one of the elect, claim that it is his inherent right, and have no sense of humility at all before God?

It is not a right; it is a gift, and that is what makes Calvinists humble before God. We know we did nothing to get it.

You have added to the Scripture that which it doesn't say.

Where?

At some point in our lives, the Scripture has to be more than prop to support our preconcieved notions. When the Bible plainly says something, and then you deny it, that is a serious issue.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Ah. So you HAVE always been saved! So you AREN'T "adopted" like the rest of us!

Back in the days when I used to converse with you, I repeatedly pointed out this error, namely, of confusing election with salvation. As you should know, being elect is not the same as being saved. That makes foolishness of Scripture.

Why haven't you learned this after all this time?

 

[DHK]

Seriously, man, it is right in front of your face. Read it.


Read it again. It says God gave you, not only to believe, but also to suffer. Both belief and suffering are the grace gifts of God in the sentence.

"It is given"
God is not an "it" It does not say that God has given. God did not give faith. That is not what the verse says. The verse says "it is given, not God has given. The "it" refers to the priviliege that God has given to us. The it does not refer to God. That should be obvious to you. Since when have you started calling God "it"?

 

[Pastor Larry]

"It is given"

God is not an "it" It does not say that God has given. God did not give faith. That is not what the verse says. The verse says "it is given, not God has given. The "it" refers to the priviliege that God has given to us. The it does not refer to God. That should be obvious to you. Since when have you started calling God "it"?

First, you have yet to show us any notion of "privilege" in the first, even though I have repeatedly asked for it. You might argue that it is a privilege to believe and suffer, but the privilege is not what was given. It was belief and suffering that was given.

Second, who do you think did the giving? From the whole of Scripture, both about gifts and about faith, it is clear that God did the giving.

This is not an argument you can win on exegesis. The Scriptures are solidly and unanimously against you.

 

[webdog]

If belief is given, it is also given to the reprobate as they are damned because the "believe not"...not because they cannot believe.

 

[Pastor Larry]

If belief is given, it is also given to the reprobate as they are damned because the "believe not"...not because they cannot believe.

That's a non sequitur. The Bible never says that the reprobate are given belief, which places that in a different category.

 

[skypair]

I can also see why you and SFIC say that the elect and the saved are not necessarily the same. I disagree with that as well, but I'll let others debate.

Thank you, Tom. I can respect that you have taken consideration of our view.

Now here is something I would ask of you ---- do you see a difference between "temporal" and "spiritual" election? This appears to me to be a total disconnect between Calvies and free willers. Calvinists do not see the difference but free will, on account of being mostly dispensationalists, see a difference.

Probably we haven't expressed this too clearly (nor have the "theologists"), and so I would say that we are at a spiritual "frontier" (like I am in much of my eschatology :thumbs: ). Are you a "pioneer," Tom?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Seriously, man, it is right in front of your face. Read it.


Read it again. It says God gave you, not only to believe, but also to suffer. Both belief and suffering are the grace gifts of God in the sentence.

PL, you are right. "Faith" is a gift. 1Cor 12:9 It is a gift to those who believe. Believing lacks the critical elements of "substance" and "evidence," Heb 11:1, right?

skypair