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God Got The Memo
- Thread starter Rippon
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The WCF is amply documented with Scripture, and those who wrote it were firm adherents of sola Scriptura, which is why they amply documented it as such.
So what part of that statement do you disagree with, and how do you answer the Scriptures that are cited by WCF in support of it?
Pastor Larry said:
I do not find this to be a Scriptural statement.
Do you believe that God has ordained everything from beginning to end, and I mean absolutely everything?
Or is it not reasonable to believe that God made man in His own image and likeness (which includes intelligence and reasoning; the ability to make a choice), and gave that choice to man that he might believe or disbelieve that Christ paid the penalty for his sins. If God simply ordained everything than man has no choice. He is a robot. He has no choice. He may as well not have a brain. He is a pre-programmed automaton to serve and praise God (the elect), while the rest have been pre-programmed to serve the devil and be condemned to hell. We don't have any choice in the matter. All is "ordained", predetermined, pre-programmed, by God. Man is but a robot.
But the Bible doesn't teach that. Rather it teaches that God in his foreknowledge gave man a choice. In his omniscience He knew what the choice would be. That is foreknowledge. He knew what choice man would make. The choice is man's; not God's. God doesn't force anyone to do anything. Man has the free will to make his own decisions. It is a part of the way that he is created after the image and likeness of God. God never forces anyone into salvation. Man is not a robot. Man chooses to be saved. His faith is his decision; not God's.
Here are the verses the WCF cites as support: Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18.
How do you deal with them?
I find it not only to be scriptural, but unavoidable.
How do you deal with them?
I find it not only to be scriptural, but unavoidable.
I think you are here asserting your intelligence as superior to revelation. The Bible affirms that God ordained everything, and that man has a choice. You say that these two cannot fit together, but the Bible says that they do.
You said this earlier, and I questioned how this helps you since if God knows about it ahead of time man has no choice but to do what God knows he will do. You have not solved anything with this scenario.
This is true.
DHK said:
That's new one . Who in the world ( or the BB ) certainly not Calvinists , says that the non-elect are programmed by God to serve the Devil ?! The Lord doesn't have to program them to do evil -- it's in their nature to do so .
You are going over the edge with your increasingly bizarre remarks .
I agree with you on the point that we inherit a sin nature, and thus sin by nature. Thus one can say we are "programmed" to do so. But that is a result of Adam's choice, one that he made out of his own free will, that God knew about, but did not cause. Again that refers to God's foreknowledege (1Pet.1:2).Rippon said:
However the dreadful doctrine that God specifically chooses or ordains some to go to Hell and others to go to Heaven is quite repelling. The only reason that people end up in Hell is because of their own free will. They choose to do so by their own rejection of Jesus Christ. It is their choice. They were not pre-programmed or elected to go to Hell, as some Calvinists would have us to believe.
Most Calvinists would not have you believe that.
DHK said:
People freely sin of their own accord . That sends them to Hell . But , a number of passages affirm that some are forordained for condemnation . God is not to be blamed though .
Another thing -- Scripture never uses any form of the word 'elect' dealing with the destiny of the reprobate -- it is used solely with reference to the objects of His mercy .
The only sin that sends one to Hell is the sin of unbelief, that is the sin of the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour.Rippon said:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
We've covered this before on another thread . Those who have never heard of Christ or the Gospel will not be condemned for their rejection of Christ -- but for their sins . Those who have heard of the message of Christ in the Gospel will be condemned for their sin -- including their rejection of Christ .
webdog said:
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law , and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law ." ( Romans 2:12 ) .
The "people I claim" ! It's a fact that many have never heard . I know you think otherwise WD . But Scripture and common sense reveals that there have been , and shall be many who have never heard the Gospel .
The truth that the folks in Romans 1&2 had as heathens is not the Gospel . It is the revelation of God through nature ( 1:19,20 ) . Also 2:15 says :"Since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts , their consciences also bearing witness , and their thoughts now accusing , now even defending them ."
These heathens would rather worship creation/creatures , instead of the Creator . They would rather worship false gods . But there is no excuse for them . They suppress what God has revealed to them and just increase their wickedness . So God gives them over to their sins . Chapter 1 says that on three separate occasions .
You quote just a handful of verses out of context to try to defend your doctrine. At the same time you ignore a great doctrine taught by Christ and all of the Apostles, throughout all the NT, in almost every book with scores and scores of verses, all of them with teaching so straightforward as Christ so eloquently put here:Rippon said:
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The totality of Scripture is against you. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself testifies that man will go to hell because he rejects Christ, and for no other reason. This great truth is repeated so many times one cannot count them all. To deny this truth is to deny the greater part of the NT.
That only goes to further my point. Romans 1 speaks of the pagan. Romans two speaks of the unsaved Jew, and Romans 3 speaks of the world--both of the unsaved Jew and Gentile, that all are under sin. The fact that man is under sin points to the fact that they are need of a Saviour. They need to make that choice.Rippon said:
The fact that you excluded yourself to just those chapters and ignored the rest of the Bible which speaks volumes of the sin of rejecting Christ being the sin that sends one to hell, proves my point perfectly.
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