God Got The Memo

[Isaiah40:28]

...like you are not honest with this post?

I have yet to hear another non-Calvinist admit what DHK admits.
Yet from the position he holds, his answers are the most consistent than any other non-Calvinist I have encountered.

 

[skypair]

Nonsense . Who maketh thee to differ DHK ? It is not due to your superior-anything , nor Josh's .

DHK and Isa 40 make a good scriptural point, rip -- why did Jesus call the saved virgins "wise" and the unsaved ones "foolish" in Mt 25??

God alone makes the spiritually dead alive .

This is true --- but predicated on the "spiritually dead's" decision.

The power of your 'decision' is nothing.

Oh? So you don't decide day-to-day, hour-to-hour, etc. whether to follow Jesus or self? Or is it that if you do make that decision, God may or may not give you power to follow Him? Or maybe you can explain your thoughts on this assertion of yours.

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

DHK and Isa 40 make a good scriptural point, rip -- why did Jesus call the saved virgins "wise" and the unsaved ones "foolish" in Mt 25??

What are you talking about? I'm not in agreement with DHK at all. I was merely piggybacking on Rippon's question to DHK.

 

[skypair]

What are you talking about? I'm not in agreement with DHK at all. I was merely piggybacking on Rippon's question to DHK.

Why do YOU suppose the saved are called "wise?"

skypair

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Why do YOU suppose the saved are called "wise?"

skypair

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

To those God has called, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

 

[DHK]

Wow ... If there was ever an unbiblical statement of the gospel, this has to be it. This is right up there with some of the worst stuff I have ever heard. How in the world can you espouse this, DHK?

1. The words "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" are originally Rippon's words, not mine.

2. I only demonstrated through Josh McDowell's testimony how he was right in using those words to describe how a person does come to Christ. The Muslim uses the word "fatalism". It is an integral part of their faith. Blindly he believes that no matter what happens, good or bad, it is Allah's will. The Calvinist is headed in the same direction. Without free will, everything that happens, good or bad, is God's will. That is fate. Man has no choice. In this respect Islam and Calvinism seem to be no different.

But Biblical Christianity is different. God gave man a choice: a choice to choose between good and evil. What was the choice that Josh McDowell made based upon. It was based upon two things:
1. It was based on intellect (or wisdom gained from intellect). He had thoroughly examined the cliams of the Resurrection in the light of history and in the light of the Bible. The more he studied it, the more he found it to be true. His was not a blind faith. It was based on knowledge. Knowledge leads to wisdom. Thus one could rightly say "superior wisdom." Christianity isn't based on blind faith. Faith has an object. Its object is Christ. The more one knows about Christ, the more likely he is apt to put his faith in Christ as Saviour. That is why it is important for the Christian to know his Bible and His Saviour when witnessing to others.

2. It was based on "keen perception," as Rippon said. He perceived that that other group of Christians had something different that he didn't have. He perceived that they were different, and something made them different. It was Christ, the Holy Spirit dwelling in them that made them different, as he soon found out. His perception of that was one of the factors that led him to Christ.

Put those two factors together, and you have the two primary factors why Josh McDowell, one of the foremost apologetic writers and debaters of our century, came to Christ.

 

[skypair]

To those God has called, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God.

In other words, they became wise because they believed. In fact, if they hadn't believed, they wouldn't be saved.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

1. The words "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" are originally Rippon's words, not mine.

2. I only demonstrated through Josh McDowell's testimony how he was right in using those words to describe how a person does come to Christ. The Muslim uses the word "fatalism". It is an integral part of their faith. Blindly he believes that no matter what happens, good or bad, it is Allah's will. The Calvinist is headed in the same direction. Without free will, everything that happens, good or bad, is God's will. That is fate. Man has no choice. In this respect Islam and Calvinism seem to be no different.

But Biblical Christianity is different. God gave man a choice: a choice to choose between good and evil. What was the choice that Josh McDowell made based upon. It was based upon two things:
1. It was based on intellect (or wisdom gained from intellect). He had thoroughly examined the cliams of the Resurrection in the light of history and in the light of the Bible. The more he studied it, the more he found it to be true. His was not a blind faith. It was based on knowledge. Knowledge leads to wisdom. Thus one could rightly say "superior wisdom." Christianity isn't based on blind faith. Faith has an object. Its object is Christ. The more one knows about Christ, the more likely he is apt to put his faith in Christ as Saviour. That is why it is important for the Christian to know his Bible and His Saviour when witnessing to others.

2. It was based on "keen perception," as Rippon said. He perceived that that other group of Christians had something different that he didn't have. He perceived that they were different, and something made them different. It was Christ, the Holy Spirit dwelling in them that made them different, as he soon found out. His perception of that was one of the factors that led him to Christ.

Put those two factors together, and you have the two primary factors why Josh McDowell, one of the foremost apologetic writers and debaters of our century, came to Christ.

You would be right if you were not so wrong. Fatalism is mere fate.... hense the name. God's providence is not mere fate. God's providence is causing all things to work together for the good........... how does He do that? He is God. He has a master plan. God's providence is not fate. See the difference?

 

[reformedbeliever]

In other words, they became wise because they believed. In fact, if they hadn't believed, they wouldn't be saved.

skypair

What a joke! Can't you see what you are saying? You are saying what we have been contending you say all along. They became wise because they believed. Those who believe are more wise than those who do not. Pat yourself on the back sky.

 

[skypair]

In this respect Islam and Calvinism seem to be no different.

Same with the "cunningly devised fables" remark I made. Mohammed was actually trying to "invent" a religion that would bring Islam and Christianity together but they both "booted" him out of town. So then he came back with these somewhat OT, somewhat Islamic "visions" as the basis for belief.

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

Do you have "faith" in the rapture? If so, what is your "evidence," Heb 11:1? Or do you have faith in God and therefore believe in (hope for) the rapture?

I believe in the rapture, or have faith in it, because God said it would happen. The evidence for it is in the words of Scripture. There is no biblical difference between faith and belief. They are the same thing.

It regards temporal things -- Israel, the church, individual believers.

That doens't make it temporal. It is eternal.

Sure! My mind is not bound by what God foresees.

So God's knowledge could be wrong then? It has to be if you can change your mind from what God foreknows.

What God foresees is which way I chose.

But he can't truly foresee it if you can change your mind.

Let's just consider how any new convert in his 20's in 2 years can write Institutes with only the Bible in hand and yet name Augustine so many times in that work. Could YOU have gotten it all right without wholesale plagerism?

This is an extremely weak argument, to put it politely. God has gifted some people in the church to be able to write prodigiously because of the gifst that God has given them.

So we go back to see where Augustine got his information. Plato, tradition, etc. weaving scripture (of course) into the fable City of God, for instnance. And so much of this was already in the Catholic Church -- just understood a little differently.

Actually, Augustine predated the Catholic church, and Calvinism is significantly different than the Catholic church.

For all your posting here, you have yet to show even one area where soteriological Calvinism disagrees with the Scripture. And that is very telling.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

The Calvinist is headed in the same direction. Without free will, everything that happens, good or bad, is God's will. That is fate. Man has no choice. In this respect Islam and Calvinism seem to be no different.

Well, perhaps to your wrong-headed thinking there is no difference, but to those who can read and learn, there is no such comparison.

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.
II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.

Please show us how Calvinism teaches that "Man has no choice".

 

[webdog]

Well, perhaps to your wrong-headed thinking there is no difference, but to those who can read and learn, there is no such comparison.

Wouldn't be so quick to attack a moderator...

Please show us how Calvinism teaches that "Man has no choice".

A choice between one thing and one thing only is not choice by definition. If some can't truly come to Christ, there is no choice.

 

[Pastor Larry]

1. The words "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" are originally Rippon's words, not mine.

2. I only demonstrated through Josh McDowell's testimony how he was right in using those words to describe how a person does come to Christ.

The point is that you agree with the egregrious misrepresentation of the work of the gospel.

The Muslim uses the word "fatalism". It is an integral part of their faith. Blindly he believes that no matter what happens, good or bad, it is Allah's will. The Calvinist is headed in the same direction. Without free will, everything that happens, good or bad, is God's will. That is fate. Man has no choice. In this respect Islam and Calvinism seem to be no different.

How many time will you continue to repeat this utter nonsense? DHK, you know better. The first time it was bad, but we could assume that you didn't know better. You have now repeatedly been corrected on this and you continue to repeat it. That is inexcusable for civil conversation, how much less for a believer.

Calvinists are not headed in teh same direction as Muslims. If you actually believe that, then you are revealing a gross misunderstanding that completely disqualifies you to speak. If you believe this, then you have no credibility. Stop staying it. Stop slandering your brothers and sisters in Christ. Stop spreading falsehoods about what they believe. For the sake of the gospel, stop.

God gave man a choice: a choice to choose between good and evil.

Yes, and man chooses evil every single time, until the unilateral and sovereign work of God in his heart.

What was the choice that Josh McDowell made based upon. It was based upon two things:
1. It was based on intellect (or wisdom gained from intellect). ... 2. It was based on "keen perception," as Rippon said.

No it wasn't. It was based on God who called him and opened his eyes to see the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 1 Cor 1:18ff and 2 Cor 4:1-7 directly address this and refute this position that you and McDowell are espousing.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

The point is that you agree with the egregrious misrepresentation of the work of the gospel.

The Muslim uses the word "fatalism". It is an integral part of their faith. Blindly he believes that no matter what happens, good or bad, it is Allah's will. The Calvinist is headed in the same direction. Without free will, everything that happens, good or bad, is God's will. That is fate. Man has no choice. In this respect Islam and Calvinism seem to be no different.

How many time will you continue to repeat this utter nonsense? DHK, you know better. The first time it was bad, but we could assume that you didn't know better. You have now repeatedly been corrected on this and you continue to repeat it. That is inexcusable for civil conversation, how much less for a believer.

Calvinists are not headed in teh same direction as Muslims. If you actually believe that, then you are revealing a gross misunderstanding that completely disqualifies you to speak. If you believe this, then you have no credibility. Stop staying it. Stop slandering your brothers and sisters in Christ. Stop spreading falsehoods about what they believe. For the sake of the gospel, stop.

Yes, and man chooses evil every single time, until the unilateral and sovereign work of God in his heart.

No it wasn't. It was based on God who called him and opened his eyes to see the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 1 Cor 1:18ff and 2 Cor 4:1-7 directly address this and refute this position that you and McDowell are espousing.

Excellent, PL.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Wouldn't be so quick to attack a moderator...
A choice between one thing and one thing only is not choice by definition. If some can't truly come to Christ, there is no choice.

How profoundly ignorant of the consequences of your own position.

 

[webdog]

How profoundly ignorant of the consequences of your own position.

What are you talking about? If one is lost using "my postion" a real choice was involved.

 

[Dale-c]

Yes, and man chooses evil every single time, until the unilateral and sovereign work of God in his heart.

Just as I will always order hamburgers without mustard until my tastes change.
Do I have a choice in hamburger condiments?
Sure I do.
BUt will I ever choose that which is against my nature?
No.

If God were to change my nature and make me love mustard, I would order it everytime.

No one chooses against their nature.

THe Natural man can not know the things of God because they are foolishness to him.

 

[DHK]

No it wasn't. It was based on God who called him and opened his eyes to see the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 1 Cor 1:18ff and 2 Cor 4:1-7 directly address this and refute this position that you and McDowell are espousing.

Now you are coming a step closer to the truth. But it took a little bit of shock treatment to get you here.
What does 1Cor.18 (that you referred to) say:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--It is through the preaching of the cross that a man is saved, though the unsaved man naturally will think it is foolishness.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Faith is not a gift from God; it comes from hearing the Word of God.

Josh McDowell, for example, studied God's Word (and materials related to it). The more he studied the Word of God, the more confident (faith) he became that Jesus was indeed the resurrected Christ. Christianity is not blind faith. It is based on facts, the fact of the resurrection being its chief cornerstone.

When a person hears the gospel the Holy Spirit is able to work through the Word of God and convict the person of sin. I never denied that the Holy Spirit is out of the picture. The Holy Spirit came that he would convict the world of sin, and of judgement, and of righteousness. But all of this is related to the preaching of God's Word, from whence comes faith.

Once the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit may convict him of his sin. Even when that happens the sinner has the choice of resisting the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is resistable! Stephen said: "Why do ye always resist the Holy Spirit as your Fathers did."
The sinner has the choice whether or not to trust the Lord or to reject Him. The choice is His. He is not forced to make a decision by the Holy Spirit. He has the ability to make the decision all on his own. Grace is not, and never has been irresistable. Man always has had a choice. Choice has always been based on knowleldge. The more knowledge one has the more faith he is apt to have. For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

 

[webdog]

Just as I will always order hamburgers without mustard until my tastes change.
Do I have a choice in hamburger condiments?
Sure I do.
BUt will I ever choose that which is against my nature?
No.

How do you know you don't like mustard if you've never had it? Are you implying the reprobate have tasted the Truth and rejected it...or were never privvy to it?