God Got The Memo

[Isaiah40:28]

What are you talking about? If one is lost using "my postion" a real choice was involved.

Two consequences off the top of my head:
1) Then your prayers for the salvation of souls is useless. God is as helpless as you are in converting a lost person. He has done all He can for "Person A", they must make the final choice. Stop praying to God, His hands are tied. He wants them saved as much as you do, yet He cannot do more than present the "gift"(to use your words). He's hoping, hoping, hoping the gift will be accepted, in your system, which leads to the second point.
2) God presents the "gift" to those He knows will never accept it, yet all the while, He hopes they will. He hands it to them, fully desiring and wanting them to accept it. They do not. He is not surprised, how can He be? He knew of their rejection all along.

 

[webdog]

1) Then your prayers for the salvation of souls is useless. God is as helpless as you are in converting a lost person. He has done all He can for "Person A", they must make the final choice. Stop praying to God, His hands are tied. He wants them saved as much as you do, yet He cannot do more than present the "gift"(to use your words). He's hoping, hoping, hoping the gift will be accepted, in your system, which leads to the second point.

What misrepresentation of the non cal position! God is never powerless, He has decreed how salvation is given, and it is by faith in Christ freely.

2) God presents the "gift" to those He knows will never accept it, yet all the while, He hopes they will. He hands it to them, fully desiring and wanting them to accept it. They do not. He is not surprised, how can He be? He knew of their rejection all along.

Yes, God is omniscient. No, that doesn't discount real choice. Neither of our theological views can explain how an omniscient, omnipresent God deals with His creation within and outside of time.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Now you are coming a step closer to the truth. But it took a little bit of shock treatment to get you here.

I haven't changed.

What does 1Cor.18 (that you referred to) say:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
--It is through the preaching of the cross that a man is saved, though the unsaved man naturally will think it is foolishness.

Yes, his intellect won't discern it rightly, and he won't choose it out of wisdom, which directly refutes you and McDowell.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
--Faith is not a gift from God; it comes from hearing the Word of God.

The fact that faith comes from hearing the word does not mean that fiath is not a gift of God. We have already shown that it is.

Josh McDowell, for example, studied God's Word (and materials related to it). The more he studied the Word of God, the more confident (faith) he became that Jesus was indeed the resurrected Christ. Christianity is not blind faith. It is based on facts, the fact of the resurrection being its chief cornerstone.

This is in direct contradiction to what 1 Cor 1 says and 2 Cor 4. McDowell was convinced by the word because God opened his mind and gave him understanding.

The sinner has the choice whether or not to trust the Lord or to reject Him. The choice is His. He is not forced to make a decision by the Holy Spirit. He has the ability to make the decision all on his own.

Yes, and "all on his own" he will always choose to reject Christ.

Grace is not, and never has been irresistable.

Of course not. Calvinism does not teach that it is.

Man always has had a choice.

Yes, and he has always chosen to reject Christ until he is given a new nature.

Choice has always been based on knowleldge. The more knowledge one has the more faith he is apt to have. For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

No, because as 1 Cor 1 points out, it is foolishness ot the unregenerate, no matter how much he knows about it. It is the wise or the debaters of the age who are saved. It is the called.

Again, you have serious problems with Scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Neither of our theological views can explain how an omniscient, omnipresent God deals with His creation within and outside of time.

Mine can deal with it.

 

[webdog]

Mine can deal with it.

Yours attempts to...

What pride and arrogance to think a finite man bound by time can understand an infinite God not bound by time!

I think we see what your theology can lead to.

 

[Rippon]

Now you are coming a step closer to the truth. But it took a little bit of shock treatment to get you here.

I asked you a while back if you were saying such unscriptural things just for shock value , but you never acknowleged my remark . Yet since you continue on your same old way you must really hold to your unbiblical positions . No funny-face here .

 

[Rippon]

1. The words "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" are originally Rippon's words, not mine.



2. It was based on "keen perception," as Rippon said.

Let's set the record straight DHK . I was fleshing out your position --- clarifying it . But you took the ball and ran with it . I certainly do not believe that one becomes regenerate because one has "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" .The Lord sovereignly determines who , when and in what manner a person elect from eternity is united to Himself . Only by receiving grace can one be saved .Man is too puny and inclined toward evil to turn to God on his own initiative .The Lord , and the Lord alone gets the Glory .

 

[Isaiah40:28]

What misrepresentation of the non cal position! God is never powerless, He has decreed how salvation is given, and it is by faith in Christ freely.

You are ignorant. Your beliefs have consequences which you choose to ignore.
You ask God to save someone that He already is trying to save. The problem is the man doesn't want to be saved and nothing God can do will change that choice.
God is powerless in your system. He wants to save someone, yet He cannot without their permission and decision.
Show me the misrepresentation, webdog.

The Calvinist says that God saves everyone who desires to be saved and that same group is also the elect of God. They are one and the same. He elects His children and then He saves them. He does not hope for more children than He already knows He has.
In your system, God hopes that more people will accept Him than He already knows. He doesn't get what He wants. He loses people who He wants to save.

Bad theology and you refuse to admit that there are problems with your view.

 

[Rippon]

He has decreed how salvation is given, and it is by faith in Christ freely.

That is the first time in my memory that you have ever come close to acknowledging the decree(s) of God . But God determines more than "how" salvation is given . Although it is instructive that you concede ( or willingly acknowledge ) that salvation is "given" . God also determines the "when" , "where" , and "who" concerning salvation . That's because He is truly LORD .

 

[DHK]

Let's set the record straight DHK . I was fleshing out your position --- clarifying it . But you took the ball and ran with it . I certainly do not believe that one becomes regenerate because one has "superior wisdom" and "keen perception" .The Lord sovereignly determines who , when and in what manner a person elect from eternity is united to Himself .

I disagree. He knows; not determines. Again, if you use the word "determine" your religion is not much different than Islam, is it? I believe in sovereignty. I believe that God is overall. I believe in his omniscience and foreknowledge. But he has not determined everything that I or anyone else does. I am not a robot that God has pre-determined every choice that I have and will ever make. And yet this is precisely what you are trying to teach here. It is not much different than Islam and I am not ashamed to say that. Everything is pre-determined and man has no say in anything.
Scripturally, God in his omniscience and sovereignty knows all things. He knows what choices man in his own free will, will make. But in know way does he "determine" them as you have said. You have taken away choice--from the choice of trusting Christ to the choice of choosing what type tea to make. Man has no choice in anything he does, not even in whether or not to cross the street. Why? Everything is "determined" by God. But that is not true. Man, within the sovereign boundaries of God has choice. And God knows what those choices are even before man makes them.

Only by receiving grace can one be saved .Man is too puny and inclined toward evil to turn to God on his own initiative .The Lord , and the Lord alone gets the Glory .

We are saved by grace. Grace is free unmerited favor--getting that which we don't deserve and receiving it freely. Thus by man's choice he freely receives the grace that is provided on the cross, the gift of God (salvation) provided by Christ. He doesn't deserve it. If he got what he deserved he would spend an eternity in hell. But freely he may of his own free will accept the grace of God, his offer for forgiveness of sins. It is his choice. If he chooses to accept, then yes, he is saved by grace, that grace which he has received.
As you said, "only by receiving grace can one be saved." I couldn't agree more.

 

[webdog]

That is the first time in my memory that you have ever come close to acknowledging the decree(s) of God . But God determines more than "how" salvation is given . Although it is instructive that you concede ( or willingly acknowledge ) that salvation is "given" . God also determines the "when" , "where" , and "who" concerning salvation . That's because He is truly LORD .

Your memory may be bad, then.

I don't disagree with anything you posted.

 

[Rippon]

I don't disagree with anything you posted.

WOW ! Now that has to be a first .

So you are agreeing that God indeed determines ( among other things ) who shall be saved ?

 

[Pastor Larry]

What pride and arrogance to think a finite man bound by time can understand an infinite God not bound by time!

I didn't say we could totally understand God, but he gave us his word with the expectation that we could understand it. Therefore, it is not arrogance to say we understand; it is humility of a mind subjected to the Word. It is a struggle to be subject to the Word, particuarly when it flies in teh face of what I would like to believe, but we have to submit to it.

I think we see what your theology can lead to.

What's that, and where did you see it?

 

[webdog]

You are ignorant. Your beliefs have consequences which you choose to ignore.

Mine do? Ever see the logical path your theology leads?

You ask God to save someone that He already is trying to save.

Now we can see who may be worthy of the "ignorant" title .
God doesn't "try" to save anyone. He DOES save those who put their faith in Christ.

The problem is the man doesn't want to be saved and nothing God can do will change that choice.

So even the things He put within man are a waste of time to you then. God reaches out to man first. I agree man on his own doesn't want to be saved, but God has put His law and conscience in ALL men's hearts. God already has reached out to mankind.

God is powerless in your system. He wants to save someone, yet He cannot without their permission and decision.

"In my system" I just outlined how God is NOT powerless, yet you continue to state He is. He doesn't want to save someone, He does. He also desires that all repent and none perish. He has decreed this, not me or "my system".

Show me the misrepresentation, webdog.

Besides the above?

The Calvinist says that God saves everyone who desires to be saved and that same group is also the elect of God. They are one and the same. He elects His children and then He saves them. He does not hope for more children than He already knows He has.

I know what calvinism says.

In your system, God hopes that more people will accept Him than He already knows. He doesn't get what He wants. He loses people who He wants to save.

I don't know who's system you are referring to, but it sure ain't mine. You may want to think twice before throwing around the "ignorant" quote.

Bad theology and you refuse to admit that there are problems with your view.

Show me once where I have refused to admit there are problems with my theology, or retract that foolish, baseless claim. Apparently the only one I have seen on this thread who has an ironclad theology is Pastor Larry. I have always maintained finite being bound by time cannot understand how an infinite God not bound by time interacts with His creation.

 

[webdog]

WOW ! Now that has to be a first .

So you are agreeing that God indeed determines ( among other things ) who shall be saved ?

Absolutely! Both the cal and non cal agree to that which is truth (salvation by grace through faith...God's decree of salvation). It is how we arrive there we don't see eye to eye.

We agree on quite a bit outside this topic, btw, particularly the NLTse :thumbs:

 

[webdog]

I didn't say we could totally understand God, but he gave us his word with the expectation that we could understand it. Therefore, it is not arrogance to say we understand; it is humility of a mind subjected to the Word. It is a struggle to be subject to the Word, particuarly when it flies in teh face of what I would like to believe, but we have to submit to it.

Here is what you reponded to, stating what your theology can "deal" with...

Neither of our theological views can explain how an omniscient, omnipresent God deals with His creation within and outside of time.

Naturally, I beg to differ because neither of us are infinite or omniscient.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Here is what you reponded to, stating what your theology can "deal" with...

Neither of our theological views can explain how an omniscient, omnipresent God deals with His creation within and outside of time.

Naturally, I beg to differ because neither of us are infinite or omniscient.

The context of that statement was a discussion about soteriology, and I think God is quite clear about how he deals with his creation both inside and outside of time.

 

[webdog]

The context of that statement was a discussion about soteriology, and I think God is quite clear about how he deals with his creation both inside and outside of time.

Yes, the context was how God can be omniscient, and how He can desire all men to repent and none perish...while really meaning just that...and while that not being the case (all repenting and none perishing).

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yes, the context was how God can be omniscient, and how He can desire all men to repent and none perish...while really meaning just that...and while that not being the case (all repenting and none perishing).

My theology can deal with that in one of two ways. Either we can say that God has a decreed will and a desirative will, which are not both the same, or that the "all" he desires to repent and not perish is "all of the elect." Personally, I follow the first option, though one of the arminians ... err, non-calvinists, almost persuaded me of the second option.

But in either case, "my theology" can deal with it. I don't think it is that confusing, personally. But then I am not laboring to find contradictions with great intellectual solutions to them either. I just take it for what it says.

 

[skypair]

I believe in the rapture, or have faith in it, because God said it would happen. The evidence for it is in the words of Scripture.

Scripture is just words, Larry. The fact that all scriptural prophecy comes true makes it reliable to hope in, but until it happens, it is still hope or belief.

So is that what your saving faith is -- "clinging" to externalities for which you have no objective proof of what you hope is true? Or did God give you some kind of evidence of your salvation -- like faith?

So God's knowledge could be wrong then? It has to be if you can change your mind from what God foreknows.

Is it really that hard a concept for you to grasp? From before the foundation of the earth, God foresees which decision I will make in the course of time. And THAT is what is foreseen and will happen.

Same with prayer (actually, personal salvation begins with a prayer, doesn't it?). God knows how things ought to go according to natural law, but when He fore-hears our prayers in eternity past, He often ordains a different course of events to follow.

This is an extremely weak argument, to put it politely. God has gifted some people in the church to be able to write prodigiously because of the gifst that God has given them.

Ah! So it's a miracle! How come he also tried to build the "city of God" in Geneva? Was that scripturally inspired or Augustine inspired?

For all your posting here, you have yet to show even one area where soteriological Calvinism disagrees with the Scripture. And that is very telling.

I did not know that you couldn't remember my "beef." :laugh: Here it is again -- regeneration does not precede faith.

skypair