God Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

[TCGreek]

Congrats on your new baby girl, Webdog. Girls are so cute and delightful! :thumbs:

 

[Tom Bryant]

Congratulations, Web Dog!!! Having 2 daughters I know the power they have over daddy and it's wonderful!!!

 

[MB]

I think that is a great point about alot of stories and truths in Scripture. We have a system and read everything in light of that system. In so doing we try to systematize and unsystematic God who always seems to surprise us.

Of course there are absolutes that we can't quibble on and still be Biblical. But some actions of an eternal, infinite, sovereign God are going to make us scratch our heads and say, "huh?" Because His ways are above our ways and they are past finding out.

Hi Tom this was beautifully said the Lord must have been behind this truth. Hyperbolic mean to exaggerate an exaggeration isn't the truth and has no place in God's word.
MB

 

[J.D.]

Hay Webdog, I hope you'll let me put our bickering aside long enough to say along with the rest of the folks here that you are truely blessed to have those two beautiful kids in your life. I am jealous - I wish mine were still at home. And they are blessed to have you as their father, for I know you will love and protect them with all your heart.

 

[webdog]

Hay Webdog, I hope you'll let me put our bickering aside long enough to say along with the rest of the folks here that you are truely blessed to have those two beautiful kids in your life. I am jealous - I wish mine were still at home. And they are blessed to have you as their father, for I know you will love and protect them with all your heart.

Thanks, JD and rest of you guys. They truly are a blessing. I was nervous going from one to two because I didn't know if I'd be able to love 2 as much as my firstborn...but all I've noticed is my love for my firstborn son grew and my love for my little princess is exactly the same. If that is how it is with each child...I'll have to talk to my wife about #3 and #4

 

[PastorSBC1303]

.but all I've noticed is my love for my firstborn son grew and my love for my little princess is exactly the same. If that is how it is with each child...I'll have to talk to my wife about #3 and #4

As the father of 4 little princesses I can tell you that with the addition of each one the love just continues to grow.

Congrats Web, the picture is great.

 

[skypair]

Thanks, JD and rest of you guys. They truly are a blessing. I was nervous going from one to two because I didn't know if I'd be able to love 2 as much as my firstborn...but all I've noticed is my love for my firstborn son grew and my love for my little princess is exactly the same. If that is how it is with each child...I'll have to talk to my wife about #3 and #4

I envy you webby -- and I know I'm not supposed to. But I have seen it all already and if you bring 'em up right -- WOW! What a blessing!!

skypair

 

[The Archangel]

Why would God want anyone to appear as they are taking His place?

Webdog,

I'm not sure what you mean to be asking. Certainly, God did not want anyone to appear as Moses was "taking His place." But, that was never in question. Repeatedly, Moses has to pray to YHWY to get Him to rescind the plagues, he does not do it himself. Also, he tells Pharaoh that they are going to go into the desert/wilderness to worship their God, not Moses.

So, I think your presupposition that God wanted Moses to appear as God (If that is your presupposition) is wrong because it goes beyond what the text implies and states outright.

Let's continue this further, though. Please clarify for me what you mean and why.

Blessings,

The Archangel

PS. Congrats on the lil' one. I have an almost 5-month-old little girl and she is quite a joy! Many blessings to you, your family, and your little one.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I'll stop in long enough to echo web's blessings. Web, my daughter is about to get her drivers license. They grow up too fast. Enjoy every second.
Beautiful picture. :thumbs:

 

[~JM~]

pdf

This sermon explains it all.

The Lord God said, with regard to Pharaoh, “I will harden his heart.” And he did so repeatedly. In judgment upon that wicked tyrant and in great mercy toward his chosen people, God hardened Pharaoh with a judicial, penal hardness. Nineteen times the in the Book of Exodus the Holy Spirit tells us about the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. I presume he intends for us to sit up and pay attention. This is no light thing to consider. Three times, we are told that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Exodus 8:15, Exodus 8: 32, and Exodus 9:34). Sixteen times his heart is said to have been hardened by the just judgment of God (Exodus 4:21; 7:3, 13, 14, 22; 8:19; 9:7, 12, 35; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17).
God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, giving him up to the hardness of his heart in judicial reprobation (Romans 1:28-32). Giving him no grace, the Lord God left Pharaoh to the corruptions of his own heart and nature and the power of Satan, and sent him strong delusions to believe the lying miracles of his magicians.

Say it out loud:
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,
and He harden his heart,

19 Times God harden Pharaoh's heart.

 

[Salamander]

And for the Judicail Action to have taken place for the Penal Institution to have grounds for that hardening, then there had to be due cause for taking such action: i.e., Pharoah hardened his heart towards the reproof of God on his life first.:godisgood:

 

[Tom Butler]

We should note that when God hardens a heart, it is one that is already in rebellion because of a sinful, fallen nature. That describes Pharoah. In many ways, Pharoah was acting according to his nature.

God certainly did not harden Pharoah against his will. Pharoah had already demonstrated an animosity toward Israel and Israel's God.

 

[Outsider]

Salamander,

And for the Judicail Action to have taken place for the Penal Institution to have grounds for that hardening, then there had to be due cause for taking such action: i.e., Pharoah hardened his heart towards the reproof of God on his life first.

I like the way you worded that. But is that scripture or your opinion? Does it say thats what happened or is that the way it makes sense to you? Just curious?
Does God need to have grounds to excercise His authority or pleasure?

 

[Salamander]

Salamander,

I like the way you worded that. But is that scripture or your opinion? Does it say thats what happened or is that the way it makes sense to you? Just curious?
Does God need to have grounds to excercise His authority or pleasure?

It is due to the fact that God is not fair, but Just.

The Lord ordained human government to serve His purpose. To think God goes contrary to what He ordained is extra-biblical.

We find that first Pharoah hardened his own heart, then in the judicial action God hardened his heart and without remedy. That is all based upon the word "respite". Respite is what Pharoah experienced after some of the plagues.

Respite is a sort of rest, but the implication is that no further consequences were then evident and Pharoah thought the plagues would cease. That ideal of his was that Pharoah had heard the God of the Hebrews was one of Mercy and the God of Love, but that ideal forgot, or has a total misconception that God also has His wrath upon the wicked whom He actually hates and is angry every day.

That same misconception is what the carnal and the worldly both think of God, but are they in for a great surprize!

Pharoah had stiffened his neck towards the Hebrews and God, in doing so he invited double-indemnity.

That is not my opinion, but I can back it all up with Scripture, although I didn't make specific references.

I suggest a concise reading of the Bible to all who might not understand or already know to which verses I am referring.

Exodus and Proverbs wil help.

 

[Outsider]

The Lord ordained human government to serve His purpose. To think God goes contrary to what He ordained is extra-biblical.

I think I understand what you are saying but I am not sure. If you are saying that He leaves His purpose in our hands, I do not agree. I see it that He works everything out for according to His pleasure.
Eph 2:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

That is not my opinion, but I can back it all up with Scripture, although I didn't make specific references.

I would be interested in the scriptures so I could examine this more.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

Hi guys,

I have to jump in here and say, it is my understanding that when God hardens ones heart the only thing he does is withholds His Grace from that individual. Basically saying if you want the sin then I will withhold my restraining hand and let you have it, so the individual takes his natual course of action and runs furher away from God. Rebelion upon rebelion. I think we see good examples of this in Romans. How God gave them over,,,Rom 1

Also we know that God can withold people from sinning for this is what he tells Abimelech after he found out he had Abrahams sister in Gen 20.

Your thoughts?

 

[~JM~]

We should note that when God hardens a heart, it is one that is already in rebellion because of a sinful, fallen nature. That describes Pharoah. In many ways, Pharoah was acting according to his nature.

God certainly did not harden Pharoah against his will. Pharoah had already demonstrated an animosity toward Israel and Israel's God.

A little more...

Chrysippus employs the example of a cylinder made to roll down a hill (Cicero, On fate 42–3 = Long and Sedley 1987, 62C 8–9; Aulus Gellius, Attic nights 7.2.11 = Long and Sedley 1987, 62D 4). He says that there are two distinct types of cause working here. One is our pushing the cylinder to make it move; this is the ‘auxiliary and proximate cause’ – we can call it the ‘external cause’. And the other is the cylinder’s being round; this is the ‘complete and primary cause’ – which we can call the ‘internal cause’ (see Long and Sedley 1987, 62C 5–6). We may be inclined to object that the being round is not really a cause. It is a property that the cylinder has, as would be its redness and heaviness, just in case it is red and heavy. Chrysippus could reply, and say that whereas the colour and weight of the cylinder have no bearing on its rolling – a blue, light cylinder rolls just as well – its roundness does have a bearing on its rolling: if it weren’t round, it wouldn’t roll. We would say that the roundness was a necessary condition for the cylinder’s rolling, just as the pushing of the cylinder was also necessary: no push, no rolling. But together both the roundness and the pushing were sufficient for the rolling. Chrysippus wants us to note that both the external cause and the internal cause themselves had causes properly located in the causal nexus comprising the entire history of the world. The external cause of the push was itself caused by our foot swinging to meet the cylinder, and the internal cause of the cylinder’s roundness was caused by the manufacturing process that made it. And we may suppose that the rolling will itself cause something else to happen, such as the knocking over of a sheep, or a splash in the stream, or both. In short, nothing has happened which violates the theory of causal determinism.

 

[Salamander]

I think I understand what you are saying but I am not sure. If you are saying that He leaves His purpose in our hands, I do not agree. I see it that He works everything out for according to His pleasure.
Eph 2:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Aha! Another Scripture proof that predestination doesn't occur until after obtaining that inheritance, which we had no claim to before we were saved!

I would be interested in the scriptures so I could examine this more.

Good place to start:

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.

 

[Tom Butler]

Whether one sees the hardening of Pharoah's heart as a sovereign unilateral act of God, or as God's response to Pharoah's hardening his own heart, there are some things that stand out.

One, that God has the power to prevent someone from turning to him in repentance and faith, just as he had the power to keep Abimilech from sinning.

Two, that he exercises that power.

Three, that in doing so, he neutralizes or over-rides the will of Pharoah. The result is that not only will Pharoah not repent, he cannot.

Four, as far as Pharoah is concerned, he no longer has a "chance" to be saved.

Is this situation unique to Pharoah, or is there a universal principle at work here?

This is hard stuff, isn't it?

 

[Salamander]

Whether one sees the hardening of Pharoah's heart as a sovereign unilateral act of God, or as God's response to Pharoah's hardening his own heart, there are some things that stand out.

One, that God has the power to prevent someone from turning to him in repentance and faith, just as he had the power to keep Abimilech from sinning.

Then where they limited the holy one of israel would be a lie, and it is not.

Two, that he exercises that power.

Three, that in doing so, he neutralizes or over-rides the will of Pharoah. The result is that not only will Pharoah not repent, he cannot.

Pharoah being without remedy is due to the actions of Pharoah and thus God's penal action ensues.

Four, as far as Pharoah is concerned, he no longer has a "chance" to be saved.

Is this situation unique to Pharoah, or is there a universal principle at work here?

This is hard stuff, isn't it?

No, not really that hard when taking into consideration other Scriptures.

I do agree that once Pharoah "sinned away his day of grace" all his choices were only out of the depraved nature and with no possibility of knowing the will of God from that point in time.

We seem to forget all about that spance called time.