God Hardening Pharaoh's Heart

[Tom Butler]

Salamander, I guess the point I make is that we mouth platitudes such as, "everybody has a chance to be saved up to the time of their deaths."

Pharoah did not. It is obvious that with regard to some individuals, God simply quits dealing with them, and without that dealing, they do not have a chance to be said. They won't be saved and they can't be saved.

We have other instances in scriptuire where God prevented some from believing. God told Isaiah in Isa 6 to preach and call the Israelites to repentance, but told Isaiah they wouldn't because he had blinded them to the truth and clouded their understanding.

I think most of us believe in reprobation, but find it difficult to reconcile it with man''s so-called free will.

 

[Salamander]

Salamander, I guess the point I make is that we mouth platitudes such as, "everybody has a chance to be saved up to the time of their deaths."

I wouldn't quite agree with that. I would say that everyone has the chance until they have rejected the Lord in their heart so much that God does reprobate their minds.

Pharoah did not. It is obvious that with regard to some individuals, God simply quits dealing with them, and without that dealing, they do not have a chance to be said. They won't be saved and they can't be saved.

Here is a prime example of God looking on the inward parts and not on the outward appearance. We cannot see the deaqlings of God on the inward man as much as we'd like to, although we can see conviction on the countenances of many.

I don't like the idea of "countenance judges" though I have seen many a countenance reveal conviction.

I say this tongue in cheek, but some one once said, "I know I'm hitting home when I see the scowls on their face." I thought that might not be accirate because they could just be supressing gas!:laugh:

We have other instances in scriptuire where God prevented some from believing. God told Isaiah in Isa 6 to preach and call the Israelites to repentance, but told Isaiah they wouldn't because he had blinded them to the truth and clouded their understanding.

That is evidence that God is Omniscient and isn't a valid example for His Sovereignty. ( not saying you were using it that way)

I think most of us believe in reprobation, but find it difficult to reconcile it with man''s so-called free will.

When one defines man's "free will" contrary to his having a will that he is free to use is where most problems occur.

Man is not free to choose to be saved at any point in time, but only free to choose Jesus when conviction occurs in his life.

It is not up to us to judge the level of conviction, nor to judge the presence of it, but to preach with power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost so conviction can bring a sinner to the point of receiving God's grace!:godisgood:

God offer salvation knowing who will receive it and when, but He also knows that at times a man will not receive although at a later time he will.

It all has to do with the heart and its condition and the level of conviction incorporated that brings a sinner to his knees in repentence. That would be according to the free will of that man to bow and not to be forced down.:wavey:

 

[Rippon]

...and not to be forced down." Come on and get it right after so much exposture to real Calvinism . The Lord does not "force" Himself on anyone . Please stop spouting your deliberate mischaracterizations Sal .

 

[Salamander]

...and not to be forced down." Come on and get it right after so much exposture to real Calvinism . The Lord does not "force" Himself on anyone . Please stop spouting your deliberate mischaracterizations Sal .

We agree on one point and you rail on me? Typical.

 

[Tom Butler]

I would say that everyone has the chance until they have rejected the Lord in their heart so much that God does reprobate their minds.

Then you agree that there is a point beyond which one cannot be saved, and that point is when God reprobates their minds.

Or did I misread you?

I think that's what I was trying to say.

 

[Salamander]

Exactly, except the Lord has the power to "un" reprobate a mind.

I believe this could be the case where enough intercession is made on the behalf of one who is a reprobate. To answer the question that might follow that remark, I cannot limt the grace of God because I might have exhausted that grace myself before I got saved.

 

[Rippon]

We agree on one point and you rail on me? Typical.

You continually misrepresent Calvinism -- I think that is worth repeating .

 

[Salamander]

You continually misrepresent Calvinism -- I think that is worth repeating .

I have not ever represented or misrepresented calvinism.

 

[Rippon]

I have not ever represented or misrepresented calvinism.

You are not in the habit of fairly representing Calvinism on the BB . You are as in just as much error with respect to translational issues .

 

[Tom Butler]

Exactly, except the Lord has the power to "un" reprobate a mind.

I believe this could be the case where enough intercession is made on the behalf of one who is a reprobate. To answer the question that might follow that remark, I cannot limt the grace of God because I might have exhausted that grace myself before I got saved.

Before we can discuss reprobation further, we have to agree on the definition.

I hold that reprobation is the point at which a person can no longer be saved, because God has either hardened him and withdrawn any wooing or convicting.

I don't think one can be "un-reprobated." To me, reprobation is an absolute.

 

[Salamander]

You are not in the habit of fairly representing Calvinism on the BB . You are as in just as much error with respect to translational issues .

According to the entirety of the Bible the only error I have is the sin nature. Your error is to impose calvinism upon others in this fashion.

 

[Salamander]

Before we can discuss reprobation further, we have to agree on the definition.

I hold that reprobation is the point at which a person can no longer be saved, because God has either hardened him and withdrawn any wooing or convicting.

I don't think one can be "un-reprobated." To me, reprobation is an absolute.

I agree with that definition but only to the effect God has power over all life and any living breathing individual can be saved. If that isn't the case, the example of the fig tree which was given another more year to show fruition couldn't be used here.

I would rather think that when God reprobates the mind death soon occurs.

I think we both would agree that some one like Charles Manson, convicted for instigating the LaBianca/Tate murders in California in the 60's is a reprobate, but last I heard he is still alive.

 

[Rippon]

Pure speculation . Many reprobates lead long lives . There is a hardening of their hearts , their consciences are seared -- but many live well into old age .
If by 'death' you mean of the spiritual kind -- they have been dead since physical birth .

 

[Salamander]

Pure speculation . Many reprobates lead long lives . There is a hardening of their hearts , their consciences are seared -- but many live well into old age .
If by 'death' you mean of the spiritual kind -- they have been dead since physical birth .

Who are these "reprobates" to whom you refer?

I didn't know you had that privilege to determine reprobation in the minds of others.

 

[Rippon]

According to the entirety of the Bible the only error I have is the sin nature. Your error is to impose calvinism upon others in this fashion.

Can you please explain yourself ?

 

[Rippon]

Who are these "reprobates" to whom you refer?

I didn't know you had that privilege to determine reprobation in the minds of others.

I'm just going by Scripture ( with which you should familiarize yourself ) .

You are being silly again Sal .

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree with that definition but only to the effect God has power over all life and any living breathing individual can be saved. If that isn't the case, the example of the fig tree which was given another more year to show fruition couldn't be used here.

I would rather think that when God reprobates the mind death soon occurs.

I think we both would agree that some one like Charles Manson, convicted for instigating the LaBianca/Tate murders in California in the 60's is a reprobate, but last I heard he is still alive.

I'm not sure any of us can state with certainty who is and isn't a reprobate. Even Charles Manson is not beyond God's reach, should God determine to save him.

 

[Salamander]

Can you please explain yourself ?

Sure! Born in 1960 to parents that never took me to church. Almost saved at twelve, then a 14 year old girl caught my eyes and turned my attention away from God to this ever presently evil world and for twenty years I thought I had gotten saved until the Lord was so gracious to genuinely save me! Ever since, i have most often tried my best, at times i haven't even tried though, to please Him.

I found out after being saved I was actually human, but born with a sin nature that compelled me to sin. I was subject to the grasp sin had on my life and taken captive at the devil's will to steep me in transgressions and saturate my soul with iniquity.

Now I am a changed creature due to the perfecting work of grace and moving forward in progressive sanctification.

I have been subject to like passions as all men are subject. The only error in me beyond my inabilities to avoid sin is that I am shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin.

 

[Salamander]

I'm just going by Scripture ( with which you should familiarize yourself ) .

You are being silly again Sal .

We must needs have clarity in your remarks, expand.

 

[Salamander]

I'm not sure any of us can state with certainty who is and isn't a reprobate. Even Charles Manson is not beyond God's reach, should God determine to save him.

I agree, thus my statement he is still alive. But if I were to judge, and I being more correct than not, I believe he is a reprobate.