?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.

[Wes Outwest]

My feelings aren't hurt. The biggest reason I am continuing this is to give you opportunity to show some "grace" or else to reveal your manner.

Save your energy!

Read all of my posts you'll see some examples of you doing what you accuse me of doing! I'm not playing your game!

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Are you now prescribing a different method of salvation for these men... who proclaimed the gospel of salvation of which they were partakers? Your attempt to avoid the direct implications of these passages has only gotten you in deeper.

Have I indeed prescribed a different method of Salvation for these men? NO, so why do you elude to me doing so? </font>[/QUOTE] I didn't. I asked a clarifying question. This seems to me to be an obvious result of what you propose. If election only applies to those particular people then their salvation was procured in a way different from ours since you say ours is by a purely independent choice to believe.

That is the reason I will not apologize to you for saying you said something you did not!

What I ASKED about is implicit in what you posted. What you ascribed to me came from somewhere out in left field. It had only the remotest connection to the topic.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How was it fair to all the other fishermen, tax collectors, Pharisees in training, etc. that these were elect before the foundation of the world while they were allowed to continue on the path to hell? In fact, how is that not completely and totally unfair to all of the lost?

You will have to ask God that question. </font>[/QUOTE] God already answered it. I am asking you to see if you will agree with Him or continue to demand your own opinion of things.

What I read in God's word is History concerning these men.

Thing is that you assume the limits to these passages based on your presuppositions and not on the context.

God is the one who did the electing of them to their roles, while not electing the others in like professions.

YOU NAILED IT.

Why can't you think these things through for yourself?

I have. You just agreed with what we have been trying to get you to see for a long time now.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You not only have not trapped calvinists, you have been caught in a snare of your own design. Virtually all of the arguments you use against the election of all saved people applies equally well if you try to limit election to a few. And it won't work to say that they were elect to a certain ministry since they would have been wholly unsuited for that ministry had they not been elected to "justification".

The only snare here is your twisting of my words to mean something different than what I said!</font>[/QUOTE] Where did I twist your words? If I am doing this then please point it out specifically. You may not like the implications of what you have agreed to but it was your argument. You are the one who said that this election only applied to the Apostles. I only suggested the implications of that interpretation and perhaps the problems presented... not to my position but to yours.

If you have an opinion you have every right to express it. You do not need to twist my thoughts, to misconstrue meanings, and to misinterpret scripture to suit your own twisted theology.

You haven't shown that I have done this. In fact in the one specific case you cited, I asked a question... I didn't say "Wes says..."

Also pertaining to scripture, I am not the one who is redefining words and reading between the lines. None of your proof texts represent a problem for me. I accept them, believe them, and to the best of my ability allow scripture to interpret scripture.

If scripture says "elect" in one place and "believe" in another place then those things are compimentary, not contradictory. So I look to scripture to explain how that can be so and see that a saved man has a quickened spirit while the unsaved are spiritually dead. The lost are spiritually blind and deaf while the saved are spiritually sighted and hearing. Who is able to grant these things? Can I grant them to myself? Scripture answers these questions as well. ... and on and on.

I seek to let scripture answer all of my questions, in particular on this topic. That is why I contend that the system of calvinism does the best job of reconciling the relevant scriptures and scriptural concepts.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So those who were saved didn't have a realchoice, right?

Certainly not all those elected to God's purpose! </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe I didn't ask this correctly because your answer makes no sense.

The saved out of the group you cited above- did they or did they not have a choice in whether they got saved?

BTW, I think that Pilate and Judas acted in accord with their nature in the situation God providentially allowed them to be in. They are plainly responsible for the free will choices they made.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />My feelings aren't hurt. The biggest reason I am continuing this is to give you opportunity to show some "grace" or else to reveal your manner.

Save your energy!

Read all of my posts you'll see some examples of you doing what you accuse me of doing! I'm not playing your game! </font>[/QUOTE]I am not playing a game. I am calling on a Christian brother who I have very much enjoyed having a spirited debate with but who went too far to acknowledge that error, apologize and move on.

You first put words in my mouth in a deceptive way... call it sarcasm or whatever.

Now you have accused me of doing something but cannot come up with an example.

If I am guilty then I will apologize and if it would in any way diminish you, I will ask the moderators to delete the post.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Preconditioned? That isn't what election means. They weren't "preconditioned". They were chosen... and they were chosen to salvation or else any other election to any other purpose is meaningless.

On the same token, I believe that all Christians individually are chosen to a purpose by God... and believe that this is the vastly superior understanding of these texts.

Are all who are chosen by God, Elect of God?</font>[/QUOTE]I haven't studied this completely through but my first impulse is no... though I do not believe one can be of the Elect of God without being chosen to that end.

The tricky part would be how someone like Pharoah or Esau played into such a concept.

Are all who are chosen by God as in predestination, SAVED?

As in predestination? Yes.

I do not see where scripture teaches that God predestines men to hell but rather that He allows them to continue in their natural free will... which will always reject His gift.

 

[Scott J]

Those last questions were good BTW. Gives me something else to ponder.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />He was writing to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. These strangers he identifies as the elect. Surely you are not going to argue that he was writing to the Apostles? They were not strangers to Peter. He knew them all!

Could you explain how he knew them? I'm not sure that peter did that much travel that far from Jerusalem. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, you need to spend some time studying grammar. The quote above does not say that Peter knew the recipients of his epistle. He calls them "strangers" and identifies them as elect.

The quote states in part: "Surely you are not going to argue that he was writing to the Apostles? They were not strangers to Peter. He knew them all!". The "They" clearly refers to the Apostles. "They" were not strangers to Peter.

Wes, please read it over and over until you understand it or perhaps better yet get a good review book on grammar. </font>[/QUOTE]Did I even once say that Peter is addressing the Apostles? Why do you say that I am unless you are simply intruducing crud into the conversation in an attempt to confuse the issues. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Outwest

You apparently are not reading my posts.

You have incorrectly claimed that in Romans 8:28-30 Paul is speaking exclusively of the Apostles. I have correctly disputed that false claim.

In my post of May 4, 10:05 PM [page 10] I quoted the passage from 1 Peter and asked if you were goung to limit that passage of Scripture to the Apostles. So you see I did not accuse you of anything but, based on your past statements, simply asked a question, which as usual you failed to answer.

By the way I have not introduced crud into the conversation, rather you have by exhalting your intelligence above that of mine. On May 4, 3:42 PM [page 9] you posted the following unchristian statement: Your only heartburn is that there is someone posting here that thinks things through while you cannot, or do not!

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is the one who did the electing of them to their roles, while not electing the others in like professions.

YOU NAILED IT. [thumbs] [applause] [thumbs] [applause]</font>[/QUOTE]Not so fast Sherlock! There was only room for 12 in God's scenario. Yet there were thousands of fishermen, hundreds of tax collectors, etc. So don't make something that cannot exist! You really should think things through before you paint yourself into another corner!

I have. You just agreed with what we have been trying to get you to see for a long time now.

Again, not so fast Sherlock, That is not what you have been trying to get me to see. You want me to agree with you that God elects those whom he will save. I do not agree with that false doctrine.

Regarding the Status of the Apostles, I have never denied that they were indeed of the Elect of God, and have indeed repeatedly said so! I have even boldly stated that characters like Judas, the Pharaoh, and others, that opposed God are indeed elect of God to their roles. And as such your theory that all the elect will be saved, is refuted! You must begin to think things through. When you do, your eyes will finally open to the truth.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is the one who did the electing of them to their roles, while not electing the others in like professions.

YOU NAILED IT. [thumbs] [applause] [thumbs] [applause]</font>[/QUOTE]Not so fast Sherlock! There was only room for 12 in God's scenario. Yet there were thousands of fishermen, hundreds of tax collectors, etc. So don't make something that cannot exist! You really should think things through before you paint yourself into another corner! </font>[/QUOTE] And there is only room for the number of names written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

You have not escaped this with your deflection but only demonstrated that you don't have a direct answer.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I have. You just agreed with what we have been trying to get you to see for a long time now.

Again, not so fast Sherlock, That is not what you have been trying to get me to see. You want me to agree with you that God elects those whom he will save. I do not agree with that false doctrine.</font>[/QUOTE] You agreed that some men are elect while others are not. Your artificial limitation of this to the Apostles doesn't save you from the FACT that if any of your objections to election work for the masses then they work for the few... or else you must introduce some other extra-biblical means of salvation for the few.

Regarding the Status of the Apostles, I have never denied that they were indeed of the Elect of God, and have indeed repeatedly said so! I have even boldly stated that characters like Judas, the Pharaoh, and others, that opposed God are indeed elect of God to their roles. And as such your theory that all the elect will be saved, is refuted!

Not at all. Can you cite scripture that says these men were "elect" of God?

You must begin to think things through. When you do, your eyes will finally open to the truth.

Statements like this demonstrate nothing but pride on your part.

You assume that because someone doesn't agree with you they must not "think things through" or have their eyes open to the truth. I have thought these things through and considered the arguments of both sides. It is my opinion that calvinism (broadly) is the best system I have seen for expressing the biblical truth on this topic.

Your weak arguments and evasion of questions/issues with your belief has done nothing but strengthen my confidence in my conclusion.

 

[Wes Outwest]

And there is only room for the number of names written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

You accuse me of deflection? Let's just see how that works in your own words.

You have not escaped this with your deflection but only demonstrated that you don't have a direct answer.

You specifically asked about the apostles, I answered specific to the Apostles, now you say I didn't answer because you didn't really mean just the Apostles, even though you specifically mentioned fishermen and tax collectors.

 

[Wes Outwest]

You agreed that some men are elect while others are not. Your artificial limitation of this to the Apostles doesn't save you from the FACT that if any of your objections to election work for the masses then they work for the few... or else you must introduce some other extra-biblical means of salvation for the few.

Yes, I have always stated...clearly...that God elects people to roles in life, but he does not elect all. He appoints kings, Rulers, governors, etc. He even appoints tyrants, despots, dictators, etc., all of whom are the elect of God!

You insist that God saves the Elect. Yet when it is pointed out to you that the Pharaoh of Egypt was an elect of God, you cannot deny that he was not saved! That is an exception to your rule, and as such blows a big gaping hole in your doctrine of the elect!

As I previously point out to you, you used the titles "fishermen" and "tax collectors" in your tidy little trap, I assumed by your use of those titles that you were addressing the Apostles of whom it is widely known was comprised mainly of fishermen but also included a tax collector. You would have made the same assumption even from your frame of mind.

Not at all. Can you cite scripture that says these men (apostles) were "elect" of God?

(parens mine) Sure, John 17:1-23. For the rest, I am without bible for the moment, but there is scripture that declares that God appoints the rulers, kings, Governors, etc, and that we are to submit ourselves to their rule. If God appoints them how can anyone say they are not the elect of God? Does God save them? Did he save Herod? Did he save Pontius Pilate? Did he save Caiphas?

Statements like this demonstrate nothing but pride on your part.

No pride, just simple instruction.....and hope for you!

You assume that because someone doesn't agree with you they must not "think things through" or have their eyes open to the truth. I have thought these things through and considered the arguments of both sides. It is my opinion that calvinism (broadly) is the best system I have seen for expressing the biblical truth on this topic.

That is because you do not include all the truth in your evaluation, therefore your conclusion is based on limited and scripted information.

Your weak arguments and evasion of questions/issues with your belief has done nothing but strengthen my confidence in my conclusion.

Now who's pride is showing "Your weak arguments and evasion of questions..."