?God has no faith!? ... prove it here.

Heaven's no, let me explain. I built my own home once, but I did not do it by myself. I did the organizing and the instructing, but others swung the hammers, pushed the saws, carried the materials, measured, and assembled the building to my specifications. However, because I was the one in charge, I get the credit for "building my home". Do you think that Jesus builds his church all by himself? If he does, why does he need pastors, elders, deacons, etc.?

 

OH really? From the mouth of God the son,

Seems God the son uses others to do "his" work!

 

Could you explain how he knew them? I'm not sure that peter did that much travel that far from Jerusalem.

 

Heaven's no, let me explain. I built my own home once, but I did not do it by myself. I did the organizing and the instructing, but others swung the hammers, pushed the saws, carried the materials, measured, and assembled the building to my specifications. However, because I was the one in charge, I get the credit for "building my home". Do you think that Jesus builds his church all by himself? If he does, why does he need pastors, elders, deacons, etc.? </font>[/QUOTE]Wes

You did not build your house. You paid someone else to build it. Most people correctly say "I had a house built". Jesus Christ said I will build my church.

 

OH really? From the mouth of God the son,

Seems God the son uses others to do "his" work! </font>[/QUOTE]Surely you are not denying Scripture again Wes! I repeat, Scripture tells us:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.[/b]

 

Could you explain how he knew them? I'm not sure that peter did that much travel that far from Jerusalem. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, you need to spend some time studying grammar. The quote above does not say that Peter knew the recipients of his epistle. He calls them "strangers" and identifies them as elect.

The quote states in part: "Surely you are not going to argue that he was writing to the Apostles? They were not strangers to Peter. He knew them all!". The "They" clearly refers to the Apostles. "They" were not strangers to Peter.

Wes, please read it over and over until you understand it or perhaps better yet get a good review book on grammar.

 

I wrote something that was sarcastic,</font>[/QUOTE] It was untrue and uncalled for.

Debate my position. Debate what you think are the implications of my position... but don't put words in my mouth on important subjects... not even if it is sarcasm.

you did not recognize the sarcasm and went ballistic! </font>[/QUOTE] If it is sarcasm then it is a very poor use of a very poor debate technique.

If someone other than the two of us or rather other than you had read this, they would have assumed that somewhere in our conversations I had said "otherwise".

My jets aren't hot. I actually don't even think my heart rate has increased a beat the whole time. I am simply calling on a Christian brother to apologize for making an untrue statement about me. If it was sarcasm then the only person it would not have been lost on is you.

 

Oh. Well how does that hold up against your accusations against calvinism?

Didn't Paul have a choice in the matter? How about the other Apostles? Were they "forced" to believe?

Are you now prescribing a different method of salvation for these men... who proclaimed the gospel of salvation of which they were partakers? Your attempt to avoid the direct implications of these passages has only gotten you in deeper.

How was it fair to all the other fishermen, tax collectors, Pharisees in training, etc. that these were elect before the foundation of the world while they were allowed to continue on the path to hell? In fact, how is that not completely and totally unfair to all of the lost?

You not only have not trapped calvinists, you have been caught in a snare of your own design. Virtually all of the arguments you use against the election of all saved people applies equally well if you try to limit election to a few. And it won't work to say that they were elect to a certain ministry since they would have been wholly unsuited for that ministry had they not been elected to "justification".

 

When a housing contractor builds homes, who gets the credit? The contractor! No one says Cement man carter dug the forms and poured the foundation, Carpenter smith put up the frame, Roofer Jones put the roof on, Cabinet maker slater built and installed the cabinets, electrician Hotspark wired the house, and Finisher Joe stucco stuccoed the walls.

Everyone says that home is a home by Cavanaugh homes, Inc.

When my home was completed and I moved in, I have all the bragging rights to it being a Wes,outwest built Home.

 

In both of these scriptures, who is the author? Are both not written by APOSTLES? Is it not Apostles who provide us with the "word of God the Son who says I and the father are one"?
John Says in Chapter 17, "quoting" the words of Jesus, that he prays not only for the Apostles but for ALL who learn of God through their teachings! That is how everyone on this BBS, and sitting in church pews, or behind church pulpits have learned of God! Jesus left the realm of the natural world 2000 years ago, and so far has not returned. So we learn from the writings of the Apostles!

 

Could you explain how he knew them? I'm not sure that peter did that much travel that far from Jerusalem. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, you need to spend some time studying grammar. The quote above does not say that Peter knew the recipients of his epistle. He calls them "strangers" and identifies them as elect.

The quote states in part: "Surely you are not going to argue that he was writing to the Apostles? They were not strangers to Peter. He knew them all!". The "They" clearly refers to the Apostles. "They" were not strangers to Peter.

Wes, please read it over and over until you understand it or perhaps better yet get a good review book on grammar. </font>[/QUOTE]Did I even once say that Peter is addressing the Apostles? Why do you say that I am unless you are simply intruducing crud into the conversation in an attempt to confuse the issues.

 

Most sarcasm fits that description.

You post things that are untrue and uncalled for TOO! Chastise thyself!

RIGHT BACK TO YOU! You often post that I said something that I did not say or even elude to....Then you waste our time, expecting sympathy for your hurt feelings when it is done to you! Get real.

 

Paul and the rest of the Apostles including Judas, including Pontius Pilate were ELECTED to that time, and those events, by God, in order to accomplish HIS SPECIAL PURPOSE! A new covenant!

Did they have a choice? Who know's for sure? We do not have sufficient evidence to make a declaration one way or the other. The fact that God used them for His purpose is however a good indication the were preconditioned for their roles in the whole picture.

 

Have I indeed prescribed a different method of Salvation for these men? NO, so why do you elude to me doing so? That is the reason I will not apologize to you for saying you said something you did not!

You will have to ask God that question. What I read in God's word is History concerning these men. God is the one who did the electing of them to their roles, while not electing the others in like professions. Why can't you think these things through for yourself?

The only snare here is your twisting of my words to mean something different than what I said! If you have an opinion you have every right to express it. You do not need to twist my thoughts, to misconstrue meanings, and to misinterpret scripture to suit your own twisted theology.

 

Paul and the rest of the Apostles including Judas, including Pontius Pilate were ELECTED to that time, and those events, by God, in order to accomplish HIS SPECIAL PURPOSE! A new covenant!</font>[/QUOTE] So those who were saved didn't have a realchoice, right?

We do... Some of us do since it is consistent with what we already recognize to be true. Some of us are trapped because even applied in this limited since you "cannot tell" the answer to this dilemna since to give the answer you know to be correct would work against your presupposition.

Yes we do. Romans 8 in particular is very comprehensive. Predestined... foreknown... called... justified... glorified. Everything concerning whoever the subject was from the beginning of time to the end of time.

Preconditioned? That isn't what election means. They weren't "preconditioned". They were chosen... and they were chosen to salvation or else any other election to any other purpose is meaningless.

On the same token, I believe that all Christians individually are chosen to a purpose by God... and believe that this is the vastly superior understanding of these texts.

 

Certainly not all those elected to God's purpose!

 

The Pharoah was an ELECT of God, "God sets up the kings and rulers". Was that Elect one saved?
Pontius Pilate, was used of God, "an Elect", Was he saved? The high Priest was an Elect of God, was he saved?

Not all the elect of God are saved! What do you do with that fact!

 

Most sarcasm fits that description.

You post things that are untrue and uncalled for TOO! Chastise thyself!</font>[/QUOTE] Give me a specific instance.

RIGHT BACK TO YOU! You often post that I said something that I did not say or even elude to[/quote][/qb] When? I gave you a very specific, very blatant instance.

I haven't and won't complain about the borderline stuff. You can go back through our posts to each other and note that I have corrected you on what I believe many times... giving you the benefit of the doubt on both your facts and tactics. But in this case, what you said was simply false and would be misleading to any objective reader.

My feelings aren't hurt. The biggest reason I am continuing this is to give you opportunity to show some "grace" or else to reveal your manner.

 

Then name them if you know them!

 

Are all who are chosen by God, Elect of God? Are all who are chosen by God as in predestination, SAVED?