God is absolute.

[JonC]

@1689Dave

We do differ, just not how you seem to think we differ. I believe this is true of the Calvinists and Reforned you reject on this topic as well.

You present God as creating men and then arbitrary choosing some to be saved. But the assuage in Romans contracts this idea. God makes vessels of mercy and vessels if wrath.

If anything, think of the act of creation as a decree. God knows what (or whom) he has made before He has made them. God is eternal.

And God does not arbitrarily create. God creates with His glory in focus.

This is why I reject your idea that God has acted arbitrarily. I get what you are trying to combat, but declaring God arbitrary is no better.

 

[1689Dave]

So we won a lottery? What a cold, dead husk of a god you serve.

The God I've read of in the Scriptures doesn't merely love His created order, He loves His creation, and because of that love, gave His only begotten Son.

It is true that God's love for me or anyone else is not due to anything lovely in us, but I have it on good authority that I was loved even when dead in sins.

View attachment 5660

God is not a respecter of persons. So far NOBODY can answer why God chose to save them without implying the false doctrine that salvation is by works. Why did God save you?

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave

We do differ, just not how you seem to think we differ. I believe this is true of the Calvinists and Reforned you reject on this topic as well.

You present God as creating men and then arbitrary choosing some to be saved. But the assuage in Romans contracts this idea. God makes vessels of mercy and vessels if wrath.

If anything, think of the act of creation as a decree. God knows what (or whom) he has made before He has made them. God is eternal.

And God does not arbitrarily create. God creates with His glory in focus.

This is why I reject your idea that God has acted arbitrarily. I get what you are trying to combat, but declaring God arbitrary is no better.

What you are missing is "why did God create". Paul says in Romans 9 and in Ephesians 3:9-10 it was to reveal His mercy and wrath along with His manifold wisdom to the heavenly authorities. Sin is the only way to contrast mercy and reveal wrath. The fact that God arbitrarily chose you for this purpose shows that you had nothing to do with it. And He receives all the glory so many people claim for themselves.

 

[1689Dave]

Paul never used the term “arbitrary” concerning any activity of God. Just the opposite. God is always actively and purposefully bringing about His plan of redemption of a specific people that He has chosen for His purpose according to His will.

Even with the Romans passage concerning the molder of the clay. God specifically makes one for honorable use and one for common use. It does not say God made two lumps and then arbitrarily decided one to be honorable and one for common. God actively made the one for honorable use and actively made the other for common use; all according to His purpose and His plan.

Your theology is clearly contrary to… and fails the test….of scripture.

peace to you

It's arbitrary by his teaching on the subject. You had nothing to do with your damnation in Adam or your salvation in Christ.

 

[Aaron]

God is not a respecter of persons. So far NOBODY can answer why God chose to save them without implying the false doctrine that salvation is by works. Why did God save you?

LOL. Yes I did. I said because He loved me, though I was dead in sin—or a stinking bag of worms, as Luther once penned. That does not imply any loveliness in me. What work did I do?

He loved Jacob. Does that imply something lovely about him that God preferred him to Esau?

Being no respecter of persons doesn't mean He doesn't love people. It means the worldly status or lineage of someone has no bearing on His mercy or His indignation.

Anyway, you need to shut up, or at the very least declare yourself a noncalvinist. This vomitus you're belching is not the Gospel.

 

[1689Dave]

LOL. Yes I did. I said because He loved me, though I was dead in sin—or a stinking bag of worms, as Luther once penned. That does not imply any lovliness in me. What work did I do?

He loved Jacob. Does that imply something lovely about him that God preferred him to Esau?

Being no respecter of persons doesn't mean He doesn't love people. It means the worldly status or lineage of someone has no bearing on His mercy or His indignation.

Anyway, you need to shut up, or at the very least declare yourself a noncalvinist. This vomitus you're belching is not the Gospel.

God hates sinners. He elected those whom He hated so through Christ He could love us subjectively. His glory is greatest when He shows mercy to those He hates. You share His glory is you as a putrid sinner were lovable.

 

[Aaron]

God hates sinners. He elected those whom He hated so through Christ He could love us subjectively. His glory is greatest when He shows mercy to those He hates. You share His glory is you as a putrid sinner were lovable.

Baloney. You got a carnal kink in your think, rejecting even the sincere milk of the word and reducing Redemption to a mechanism enabling divine narcissism.

I didn't say I was lovable, or even lovely. I said God loved me with love divine. With Him, all things are possible.

 

[1689Dave]

Baloney. You got a carnal kink in your think, rejecting even the sincere milk of the word and reducing Redemption to a mechanism enabling divine narcissism.

I didn't say I was lovable, or even lovely. I said God loved me with love divine. With Him, all things are possible.

People only reveal what they are by hating and insulting others. It takes away their front, leaving their subject untouched.

 

[1689Dave]

People only reveal what they are by hating and insulting others. It takes away their front, leaving their subject untouched.

Bless you. You can overcome this by making love the determining factor for what you say.

 

[JonC]

What you are missing is "why did God create". Paul says in Romans 9 and in Ephesians 3:9-10 it was to reveal His mercy and wrath along with His manifold wisdom to the heavenly authorities. Sin is the only way to contrast mercy and reveal wrath. The fact that God arbitrarily chose you for this purpose shows that you had nothing to do with it. And He receives all the glory so many people claim for themselves.

Mercy and wrath can never be arbitrary.

I understand what you are trying to combat by saying God is arbitrary. But I think you go too far.

It would be better to say we cannot understand the mind of God than to declare God acted in an arbitrary manner.

 

[1689Dave]

Mercy and wrath can never be arbitrary.

I understand what you are trying to combat by saying God is arbitrary. But I think you go too far.

It would be better to say we cannot understand the mind of God than to declare God acted in an arbitrary manner.

Remember. one lump is being sent to hell to display God's wrath among other attributes. From that same lump, an arbitrary selection of hell-bound sinners was spared to display God's mercy. This included Christ suffering in their place. Now, why did God choose to save you?

 

[JonC]

Remember. one lump is being sent to hell to display God's wrath among other attributes. From that same lump, an arbitrary selection of hell-bound sinners was spared to display God's mercy. This included Christ suffering in their place. Now, why did God choose to save you?

No. God does not arbitrarily send people to Hell and God foes not arbitrarily save people.

The reason God saved me is that He loved me.


The difference is how we look at this. You present God creating man and then electing individuals. BUT what if you are wrong? What if God had an eternal plan for Creation?

 

[1689Dave]

No. God does not arbitrarily send people to Hell and God foes not arbitrarily save people.

The reason God saved me is that He loved me.


The difference is how we look at this. You present God creating man and then electing individuals. BUT what if you are wrong? What if God had an eternal plan for Creation?

You are missing out on why God created the universe and all it contains. It was for His glory. To make Himself known to the Heavenly Host. So it is not arbitrary that He sends sinners to Hell. But His choice between who He sends to Hell or Heaven is. He is no respecter of persons.

 

[canadyjd]

It's arbitrary by his teaching on the subject. You had nothing to do with your damnation in Adam or your salvation in Christ.

No where in scripture does it teach God does anything arbitrarily.

Once again, you have mentioned the Romans passage concerning the potter and the clay.

Please answer directly. Does that passage say God molded the two and then afterward arbitrarily chose one for honorable and one for common use? No, it does not.

It says God molded from the same lump, one for honorable and one for common use. God is clearly making each for a different purpose. His purpose and will for each is determined before He starts the molding. It is not arbitrary. It is a deliberate work of God in molding each for a different purpose.

Peace to you

 

[JonC]

You are missing out on why God created the universe and all it contains. It was for His glory. To make Himself known to the Heavenly Host. So it is not arbitrary that He sends sinners to Hell. But His choice between who He sends to Hell or Heaven is. He is no respecter of persons.

No. You are. God created everything for His glory.

Why did God elect Israel?

 

[canadyjd]

God is not a respecter of persons. So far NOBODY can answer why God chose to save them without implying the false doctrine that salvation is by works. Why did God save you?

That is simply false. Several people have answered you directly and no one “implies” works salvation. You simply refuse to even address the arguments in an intellectually honest way.

Scripture tells us God choses according to His will and purpose. The choices of our God are not arbitrary. They are not random.

No need for me to continue with this.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

No where in scripture does it teach God does anything arbitrarily.

Once again, you have mentioned the Romans passage concerning the potter and the clay.

Please answer directly. Does that passage say God molded the two and then afterward arbitrarily chose one for honorable and one for common use? No, it does not.

It says God molded from the same lump, one for honorable and one for common use. God is clearly making each for a different purpose. His purpose and will for each is determined before He starts the molding. It is not arbitrary. It is a deliberate work of God in molding each for a different purpose.

Peace to you

If God is no respecter of persons, you had nothing to do with your damnation or your subsequent salvation.

 

[1689Dave]

That is simply false. Several people have answered you directly and no one “implies” works salvation. You simply refuse to even address the arguments in an intellectually honest way.

Scripture tells us God choses according to His will and purpose. The choices of our God are not arbitrary. They are not random.

No need for me to continue with this.

peace to you

If God is no respecter of persons, you had nothing to do with your damnation is Adam, or your subsequent salvation in Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

No. You are. God created everything for His glory.

Why did God elect Israel?

For His glory. And that is part of Romans 9 and Ephesians 3...

 

[Van]

The Arbitrary election of whom He saves and whom He damns. Everything is based on His nature for His glory. If he chose you because of your supposed goodness, it would be for your glory, not His.

Did anyone suggest or say God's election was based on God discerning a person's goodness? Nope - so obfuscation on display.
Does scripture say God chooses people for salvation through their faith in the truth? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. So in Election God is not arbitrary, but definite.
Does scripture say our faith if good enough, merits salvation? Nope, it says the opposite, salvation does not depend on the person who wills or does things to be saved, but only upon God. Romans 9:16.
Does scripture say our faith is according to grace? Yes Romans 4:16

Bottom line, God is never arbitrary, His choices are according to His purpose.