God is absolute.

[1689Dave]

God does not swerve back and forth, unable to make up His mind. He knows the end from the beginning and actively works to accomplish His specific purpose.

You have demonstrated JonC’s point. You are attributing to God human indecision.

peace to you

I'm illustrating how I ARBITRARILY went to Colorado instead of Yellowstone. Using the word in a practical application. Don't twist my words and take liberties with them to smear me. If you can refute what I say with scripture, do so.

 

[1689Dave]

Your theology is non-biblical. I earned damnation. The wages of sin is death. I chose rebellion and sin. I earned death. I earned rejection and separation from God.

I don’t get what I deserve because of God’s active and deliberate choice of me for salvation according to His purpose.

And, once again, you completely ignore the truth of scripture found in Romans. God didn’t make two people and then arbitrarily chose one for honorable use and one for common use. Scripture says He actively made them for His purpose. Nothing random, nothing arbitrary about God’s work.

No matter how many times you repeat the falsehood that God acts arbitrarily, you cannot change the truth found in scripture.

peace to you

Adam earned your damnation. You had nothing to do with it. Christ earned your salvation. You had nothing to do with that either.

 

[1689Dave]

@1689Dave

I understand why you believe God did not choose us because of some merit or redeeming quality in us. We agree here.

But I do not understand why you choose to ascribe God choosing to an arbitrary choice.

You can hold the exact same position without reducing God's actions to arbitrary decisions.

I pray you will at least consider the possibility that God is intentional in all of His works.

What I was getting at with Israel is there was nothing in them to draw God's love. They were not the strongest, they were the weakest. God set His love on them because He loved them. It was not arbitrary but rather centered on God Himself.

God owes us no explanation and that He provides none does not give us the right to chalk up His work as arbitrary.

Paul says he chose from the same lump. That is an arbitrary choice of the elect and reprobate.

 

[1689Dave]

You have not offered Scripture supporting the idea God acts in an arbitrary way. I have provided Scripture.

You offered the illustration of your vacation. I an saying this is not how God operates.

Same lump for the elect and reprobate = arbitrary selection.

 

[1689Dave]

Let's look at the verse you are referencing.

Have you looked at the reason God gave to Israel yet?

For His glory. They were from the reprobate lump with a few from the elect lump. = God's wrath and mercy glorified.

 

[Van]

Did anyone suggest or say God's election was based on God discerning a person's goodness? Nope - so obfuscation on display.
Does scripture say God chooses people for salvation through their faith in the truth? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. So in Election God is not arbitrary, but definite.
Does scripture say our faith if good enough, merits salvation? Nope, it says the opposite, salvation does not depend on the person who wills or does things to be saved, but only upon God. Romans 9:16.
Does scripture say our faith is according to grace? Yes Romans 4:16

Bottom line, God is never arbitrary, His choices are according to His purpose.

To claim we are not saved by way of our credited faith is to deny verse after verse...

 

[JonC]

Paul says he chose from the same lump. That is an arbitrary choice of the elect and reprobate.

No. Paul used an illustration to say "who are you to question God?".

 

[JonC]

Same lump for the elect and reprobate = arbitrary selection.

Uh....no. We see this error a lot. People take illustrations to extremes.

Paul was saying by the illustration that it is none of our business. Pay attention to how the illustration begins.

 

[JonC]

For His glory. They were from the reprobate lump with a few from the elect lump. = God's wrath and mercy glorified.

Now that you realize God elected Israel rather than another people because this would glorify God ypu are getting closer to a biblical understanding.

Why was Israel different, unlike any other people?

 

[1689Dave]

Now that you realize God elected Israel rather than another people because this would glorify God ypu are getting closer to a biblical understanding.

Why was Israel different, unlike any other people?

You are way off the rails on this. Same lump/people appointed to wrath/ people appointed to salvation/ = God's arbitrary choice for His glory. In time the same reprobate and saved showed up in Israel. Both reveal His wrath and Mercy. Just as today. Christian Israel reveals His mercy. Pagan Israel reveals His wrath. Hitler, being slaughtered in 114 nations since 70AD. 70 AD was the worst tribulation ever.

 

[1689Dave]

Uh....no. We see this error a lot. People take illustrations to extremes.

Paul was saying by the illustration that it is none of our business. Pay attention to how the illustration begins.

same lump = arbitrary choice.

 

[1689Dave]

No. Paul used an illustration to say "who are you to question God?".

“And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” Daniel 4:35 (KJV 1900)

 

[JonC]

You are way off the rails on this. Same lump/people appointed to wrath/ people appointed to salvation/ = God's arbitrary choice for His glory. In time the same reprobate and saved showed up in Israel. Both reveal His wrath and Mercy. Just as today. Christian Israel reveals His mercy. Pagan Israel reveals His wrath. Hitler, being slaughtered in 114 nations since 70AD. 70 AD was the worst tribulation ever.

So you believe God's election of Israel was arbitrary even though Scripture says it was not?

 

[JonC]

same lump = arbitrary choice.

Believe what you will, brother.

 

[JonC]

“And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?” Daniel 4:35 (KJV 1900)

Exactly. According to His will.

 

[1689Dave]

So you believe God's election of Israel was arbitrary even though Scripture says it was not?

Certainly, you know better than this.

 

[1689Dave]

Exactly. According to His will.

If God regarded any of us as something, we would share his glory. Let Him knock us down to where we belong. Our only value is in Christ's blood in the limited atonement sense.

 

[1689Dave]

Believe what you will, brother.

I certainly do. Just trying to share the blessing with you and others.

 

[canadyjd]

I'm illustrating how I ARBITRARILY went to Colorado instead of Yellowstone. Using the word in a practical application. Don't twist my words and take liberties with them to smear me. If you can refute what I say with scripture, do so.

No twisting or smearing necessary. You said it, you own it.

I know what the word “arbitrary” means. You gave the illustration of how that works in your life as an example of how God acts arbitrarily. If that wasn’t your point, then it’s a waste of cyber space because…. as I said, we know what “arbitrary” means.

Your belief that God acts arbitrarily is unbiblical. Your example of your own arbitrary decisions is simply proof of you projecting your own decision making process upon Almighty God.

peace to you

 

[1689Dave]

No twisting or smearing necessary. You said it, you own it.

I know what the word “arbitrary” means. You gave the illustration of how that works in your life as an example of how God acts arbitrarily. If that wasn’t your point, then it’s a waste of cyber space because…. as I said, we know what “arbitrary” means.

Your belief that God acts arbitrarily is unbiblical. Your example of your own arbitrary decisions is simply proof of you projecting your own decision making process upon Almighty God.

peace to you

Here's how it works. one sinful lump of humanity. God is no respecter of persons. So he arbitrarily selects a portion to display the glory of His wrath through. From the rest of the same sinful lump, He displays the glory of His mercy. If not arbitrarily selected, why did He choose you?