God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[Alan Gross]

I see you have no ability to change your will. Since I never said you could will yourself elected, how can you claim you can will to do anything?

Did I once equate free will to sin? Free will is the ability to choose without outside force. Sin is the result of any choice. By your logic, God just removes all wrong choices and you can only do God’s will. That is not in the Bible.

God did that to Pharoh and Nebuchadnezzer, yes, but you apply that to everyone? How does that work out? We are just programmed and have no will at all? The Bible states we do have wills. Nor does God take away all the wrong choices for the elect. We still have to confess the wrong results of the choices we made. Because it is very easy to make choices.

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23

I believe your testimony is that a Naturally Born sinner, in a Natural State of flesh and ability to sin, only, where, "Sin is the result of any choice", as you said:

...can decide that it would like to take on The Divine Nature and Live Forever.

 

[timtofly]

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." Jeremiah 13:23

I believe your testimony is that a Naturally Born sinner, in a Natural State of flesh and ability to sin, only, where, "Sin is the result of any choice", as you said:

...can decide that it would like to take on The Divine Nature and Live Forever.

That is the choice the Holy Spirit offers one's whole life, yes. See it is not a change of will. It is the willingness to change. A leopard is given a choice to change it's spots? No, neither can it do anything about it. The difference is that humans are given a choice, and they have free will and can do something. It is called a choice, not a work.

The result of reformed theology is you have a lot of people who think one day they will be good enough, because they are waiting for the Holy Spirit to change them, because that is what reformed theology teaches. Guess what, they are not elect by choice. They guessed God did not choose them. They had the knowledge that it needed to be done, but nothing was done. WHY? Reformed theology let them go to hell, and their excuse is the same: it was not God's will, sorry, hope hell works out for you. When simply they could have just let God know that they were sinners and there is nothing they can do about it, which is all true. They could have let God know that they were willing, because they were, they were waiting to be changed. But they never asked. They were told asking does nothing. Waiting was a better option than asking. It was based on what they heard that if it was to happen only God could do it, and that is true, but you have to let God know, because God is also waiting to be asked.

God does not will any to stay in sin. That is the natural state and will of all humans. God is not willing any should perish, He provided the Atonement. Free will is only the ability to chose God’s will of the Atonement. The Holy Spirit gets one to a point of changing one's will, but will not change a person against their will. But there is a point of acceptance. What is wrong with giving God permission to do His own will? Would you rather they just go to hell? I question some who think they are perfect in Christ, if they even let God do His will, or they are just self righteous. They think God is changing them, but He is not.

They are just changing themselves. We are not leopards, we are moral beings. God says our morals are just filthy rags. We can change our spots with filthy rags, but we do not see them as filthy rags. We do many things in the Lord's name, but in the end, it was the wrong lord, it was not God.

Eve saw the fruit as giving wisdom and making us gods. She was already in God's image, God would give her wisdom if she just asked. Eating the fruit was not the right choice. Reformed theology is the wrong fruit.

 

[Alan Gross]

That is the choice the Holy Spirit offers one's whole life, yes. See it is not a change of will. It is the willingness to change. A leopard is given a choice to change it's spots? No, neither can it do anything about it. The difference is that humans are given a choice, and they have free will and can do something. It is called a choice, not a work.

The result of reformed theology is you have a lot of people who think one day they will be good enough, because they are waiting for the Holy Spirit to change them, because that is what reformed theology teaches. Guess what, they are not elect by choice. They guessed God did not choose them. They had the knowledge that it needed to be done, but nothing was done. WHY? Reformed theology let them go to hell, and their excuse is the same: it was not God's will, sorry, hope hell works out for you. When simply they could have just let God know that they were sinners and there is nothing they can do about it, which is all true. They could have let God know that they were willing, because they were, they were waiting to be changed. But they never asked. They were told asking does nothing. Waiting was a better option than asking. It was based on what they heard that if it was to happen only God could do it, and that is true, but you have to let God know, because God is also waiting to be asked.

God does not will any to stay in sin. That is the natural state and will of all humans. God is not willing any should perish, He provided the Atonement. Free will is only the ability to chose God’s will of the Atonement. The Holy Spirit gets one to a point of changing one's will, but will not change a person against their will. But there is a point of acceptance. What is wrong with giving God permission to do His own will? Would you rather they just go to hell? I question some who think they are perfect in Christ, if they even let God do His will, or they are just self righteous. They think God is changing them, but He is not.

They are just changing themselves. We are not leopards, we are moral beings. God says our morals are just filthy rags. We can change our spots with filthy rags, but we do not see them as filthy rags. We do many things in the Lord's name, but in the end, it was the wrong lord, it was not God.

Eve saw the fruit as giving wisdom and making us gods. She was already in God's image, God would give her wisdom if she just asked. Eating the fruit was not the right choice. Reformed theology is the wrong fruit.

You're thinking is thinking.

You think your way right around Light.

...

I am not interested in 'Reformed Theology'.

There is no Command to Reform anything.

I have more against Calvin than you do.

I am a child of those who perished in the flames.

You won't find me suggesting to 'Pray after me', or that 'and your seed' gives baptized Human sinners a Covenant with God.

WordPress.com

I Preach, "Repent".

You Preach, "Activate your Free Will".

Now, tell me what is not Bible.

That is the choice the Holy Spirit offers one's whole life, yes. See it is not a change of will. It is the willingness to change.

The Holy Spirit may Permit a soul to be Under The Teaching of The Eternal Word of God, and yet, Jesus Said they WILL NOT Come to Him that they might Have Life.

It is not of him that willeth.

No man Comes to Jesus unless The Father Draws them.
...

Did you think of what may be very Biblical and not 'silly' about a man attempting to Fly Across The Atlantic, by flapping their arms, or a bird to use their Free Will to fly to the moon?

 

[timtofly]

You're thinking is thinking.

You think your way right around Light.

...

I am not interested in 'Reformed Theology'.

There is no Command to Reform anything.

I have more against Calvin than you do.

I am a child of those who perished in the flames.

You won't find me suggesting to 'Pray after me', or that 'and your seed' gives baptized Human sinners a Covenant with God.

WordPress.com

I Preach, "Repent".

You Preach, "Activate your Free Will".

Now, tell me what is not Bible.



The Holy Spirit may Permit a soul to be Under The Teaching of The Eternal Word of God, and yet, Jesus Said they WILL NOT Come to Him that they might Have Life.

It is not of him that willeth.

No man Comes to Jesus unless The Father Draws them.
...

Did you think of what may be very Biblical and not 'silly' about a man attempting to Fly Across The Atlantic, by flapping their arms, or a bird to use their Free Will to fly to the moon?

Changing the definition of free will is not helping. I preach repentance. How can folks here repent if they think they cannot? If you think that is activating free will, perhaps it is. Since most these days deny free will altogether, one has to start somewhere. Then for some you have to keep pointing out, they have the wrong definition.

Telling them they only have a few months to get it right seems to go against their will.

 

[Derf B]

Help, a rock is dead, man.

The well need not a Physician.

A rock doesn’t need a physician. A dead person doesn’t need a physician, either.

A sick person needs a physician—someone who is about to die.

But Jesus’ point there was that those who didn’t see themselves as sick were not going to seek out a physician. Now if God provides some kind of special sauce that causes the sick to recognize they are sick, and then they can seek out a physician, I guess you could call that prevenient grace. It’s not a concept I’m particularly fond of, but that’s where your cited passage leads, when the two choices are Arminianism or Calvinism. It’s definitely not leading to a Calvinistic understanding, where the special sauce actually makes one well (“regenerated”) where he know longer needs the physician’s services.

Your premise is faulty...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

They are dead in sin. I call them normal people. Since I do not know much about you, I would say you are still dead in sin as well. Nothing has changed since your birth.

Something has changed, and changed massively. I hope it has changed in you since your birth.
'Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[1689Dave]

Please provide a quote rather than misrepresent my view.
We are saved by grace through or on the basis of faith.

And faith is a fruit of the Holt Spirit = first saved so we can believe.

 

[1689Dave]

My view was, is and will be the biblical view.

I agree with what you said. We need to work out some details we disagree on.

 

[1689Dave]

Round 2?

No dead spirits. They are demons.

Adam's spirit is alive and still with God. Only when the Lamb opens the 5th seal in Revelation 6, will Adam and all in Christ be restored to their spirit.

Spiritual death is the spirit being separated from us at conception. God then seals us with the Holy Spirit at conception.

Adam's soul separated from this flesh 900 years later. The soul was in Abraham's bosom until the cross. 3.5 days later it ascended to Paradise and is under the alter, waiting for the 5th seal to be opened.

No dead spirits, unless reprobate, then a demon. No dead souls until the lake of fire, and the second death. The only dead thing, is cursed human flesh. Came from dust, returns to dust, dead. Cannot enter Paradise. Never could after the Fall, still cannot today. Will never in the future. Dust remains dust, will all be burned in fire as this reality is dissolved. God says a new glorified body will happen. Yes, the opening of the 5th and 6th seal. Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were killed for the word of God, and for the testimony which they maintained.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, Lord, which art holy and true! dost not thou judge and avenge our blood on them, that dwell on the earth?

11 And long white robes were given unto every one, and it was said unto them, that they should rest for a little season until their fellow servants, and their brethren that should be killed even as they were, were fulfilled.

What does John mean by killed like they were? They were dead in Christ. Redeemed in Christ. There are hundreds of ways to physically die. This refers to the death caused by Adam's disobedience. They received their glorified bodies. Soon all the church, then all of living Israel who freely accept the Atonement. Then the Nations themselves will have one last choice given to living humanity. Then the Atonement will be complete. All the world and kingdoms given to God from Jesus Christ the Lamb. Then the Second Coming.

Here's Paul's description of our dead human spirit before the new birth.
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:18–21 (KJV 1900)

Here's his description of our spirit brought to life in the New Birth.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” Galatians 5:22–24 (KJV 1900)

 

[MartyF]

It is actually a very important statement and one which people are very prone to forget or ignore. God found it necessary to remind the Israelites, 'I am God, your God!' (Psalms 50:7) and to rebuke then with the words, 'You thought I was altogether like you!' (Psalms 50:21).

Ok, a Psalm of Asaph.

The first six verses start with a glorification of God. Then comes and interlude. As is usual for poetry of the Bible, transitions use a standard triplet. Triplets and couplets in the Old Testament express thoughts which are not meant to separated as you have done.

Psalm 50:7 NLT
“O my people, listen as I speak.
Here are my charges against you, O Israel:
I am God, your God!

Notice that the speaker is simply introducing himself in the third verse. It wasn't a "reminder", it was simply an identification of who was speaking. Now this is poetry and as such can have multiple meanings but I still believe you are reading the wrong thing into this passage.

The second part of the psalm discusses how God doesn't need sacrifices be instead wants thankfulness and the keeping of vows. He wants them to call on him in times of trouble. God is described as a God with personal relationships. The fourteenth and fifteenth verses introduce the second meaning to the seventh verse - God is defining himself through his relationship to his people. When you read the Bible next, look for this repeated theme throughout the Bible.

In the third part of the psalm, Asaph change the audience of the Psalm from those whom God has a relationship to the wicked.

Psalm 50:16 NLT
But God says to the wicked:
“Why bother reciting my decrees
and pretending to obey my covenant?

Notice the contrast to seventh verse! God is no longer introducing himself as "your God". God does not maintain a relationship to the wicked. This is a repeated theme throughout the Bible. God then starts to list the charges he has against them.

The NKJV, NLT and many others considers this to be two couplets while the ESV differs and considers this to be a triplet.

Psalm 50:21 NKJV
These things you have done, and I kept silent;
You thought that I was altogether like you;
But I will rebuke you,
And set them in order before your eyes.

Psalm 50:21 NLT
While you did all this, I remained silent,
and you thought I didn’t care.
But now I will rebuke you,
listing all my charges against you.

Psalm 50:21 ESV
These things you have done, and I have been silent;
you thought that I was one like yourself.
But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.

I think the ESV got it right in this instance. This ends the theme in the third part of the psalm. Notice that at the start of this portion, in verse 16, the wicked are introduced as people acting as if they are holy and doing everything that God wants them to. At the end of the of this third part, God says that they weren't like him at all. Asaph isn't describing God's metaphysics here. He is comparing behavior.

The clincher to the psalm is that God gives the wicked the choice to repent.

Humans are often prone to make God in their image and cast Him as just a somewhat great greater version of themselves, but He is actually not like us (Isaiah 55:8-11).

Humans are made in God's image.

Genesis 1:26-27 NLT
Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground.”

[27] So God created human beings in his own image.
In the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Literally translated, humans are the idols of God. Yes, it would be wrong to say that we are the God is our image but to say that there is not relation between God and humans would require one to ignore a theme of the Bible which is introduces in the first chapter.

That being said to save time and space, I'll just reference an explanation of this verse.

Verse Quick Reference

I think it is good to consider what are called the 'incommunicable attributes' of God - that is, those attributes which mankind does not share in any way.
God is self-existent - we are created.
God is eternal - we are temporal.
God is immutable - we are changeable.
God is infinite - we are limited.
God is perfect - we are imperfect.
God is omniscient - we know in part.
God is omnipotent - such limited power as we have is derived from Him.
God is 'simple;' that is, He is not composed of parts as we are and therefore not susceptible to division - we are complex.

God is God; we are not.

At this point, you should heed the advice of the OP, even if he doesn't

God is God, According to Who God Says God is, and not Who the mind of carnal men reasoning within a sin-cursed brain of Natural flesh, THINK God is.

One should read the Bible to know who God is and not pigeon-hole God into what one thinks God should be.

 

[Alan Gross]

A rock doesn’t need a physician. A dead person doesn’t need a physician, either.

A sick person needs a physician—someone who is about to die.

But Jesus’ point there was that those who didn’t see themselves as sick were not going to seek out a physician. Now if God provides some kind of special sauce that causes the sick to recognize they are sick, and then they can seek out a physician, I guess you could call that prevenient grace. It’s not a concept I’m particularly fond of, but that’s where your cited passage leads, when the two choices are Arminianism or Calvinism. It’s definitely not leading to a Calvinistic understanding, where the special sauce actually makes one well (“regenerated”) where he know longer needs the physician’s services.

Your premise is faulty...

My premise is that a rock is dead.

 

[MartyF]

Does Satan have the power to send down “fire of God” or “great winds”?

Job 1:12 NLT
“All right, you may test him,” the LORD said to Satan. “Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don’t harm him physically.” So Satan left the LORD’s presence.

Job 1:16 NLT
While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and burned up your sheep and all the shepherds. I am the only one who escaped to tell you.”

Who knows more about what is going on? God or the human messenger? You seem to think the human messenger knows more than God.

God says Satan incited God against Job…so again we see these things that are happening to Job are at God’s hand. After all, if Satan had the ability to torment Job on his own, why is he coming before God to get the deed done?

Yes, the accuser did urge God to harm him, but it doesn't say that God did this directly. It repeatedly says that he delegates this to Satan.

Notice what’s happening. Job was “righteous in his own eyes” – this means Job thought it was unfair for God to “allow” all these things to be happening to him.

A better translation of what is going on here -

Job 32:1 NLT
Job’s three friends refused to reply further to him because he kept insisting on his innocence.

Job's friends give up because Job keeps on insisting that he is innocent. The narrator of Job as well as God agree and repeated state that Job is in fact innocent.

Elihu is also depicted as being upset with Job’s “friends” because they were missing the point of what this was all about. Elihu wants to deal with the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature instead of Job’s individual experience.

After all, Job’s “friends” were using “logical” arguments…but for all the “logic” is ignored the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature.

At this point, you're adding something to the text which is not there. Elihu is not really upset with the logic. He is upset that the other three are being so polite. Job 32:18-22

In Job 33:8-12, Elihu recounts Job’s argument/complaint & then Elihu begins his answer which reads:

“Surely you have spoken in my hearing, And I have heard the sound of your words, saying, ‘I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me. Yet He finds occasions against me, He counts me as His enemy; He puts my feet in the stocks, He watches all my paths.’ “Look, in this you are not righteous. I will answer you, For God is greater than man.

So, Elihu correctly relates that Job’s problem is that he thinks it is unfair that God “finds occasions against” him & then Elihu tells Job he is not righteous to be thinking this say & that the issue is that God is greater than man.

Job 33:9,12 NLT
You said, ‘I am pure; I am without sin; I am innocent; I have no guilt. [12] “But you are wrong, and I will show you why. For God is greater than any human being.

Once again Elihu repeats the argument that the other three have made - Job is not really innocent. Notice verses 23-28. Elihu is saying that if Job were upright bad things would not be happening to him. In verse 32, Elihu is telling Job to repent.

In chapter 34, he continues along with the refrain that Job had to have sinned against God and then ends with the statement that because Job refuses to acknowledge his sin, he is adding rebellion to the set of sins Job has commited.

Job 34:37 ESV
For he adds rebellion to his sin; he claps his hands among us and multiplies his words against God.”

Once again, the narrator and God both repeatedly state that Job is innocent.

Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! (Job 34:35) Moreover Elihu answered and said: “Do you think this is right?

Do you say, ‘My righteousness is more than God’s’?

For you say, ‘What advantage will it be to You?

What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?’ (Job 35:1-3)


What??? Poor Job was minding his own business & had his entire family wiped out, his possessions destroyed or taken, & is suffering from boils from head to feet & yet Elihu is so cold (might we say “mean” & “hurtful”, or “unChrist-like” -- comments like this against Elihu we would often hear even from the mouths of so-called Christians) that he is saying that Job is behaving like a wicked man in his answers.

How could Elihu be so insensitive?

As Elihu said from the beginning, he was upset that Job's friends were so "nice". However, Elihu is not making any new arguments. Elihu is still saying

Job 35:14 NLT
You say you can’t see him,
but he will bring justice if you will only wait.

and

Job 36:6-10 NLT
He does not let the wicked live
but gives justice to the afflicted.
[7] He never takes his eyes off the innocent,
but he sets them on thrones with kings and exalts them forever.
[8] If they are bound in chains
and caught up in a web of trouble,
[9] he shows them the reason.
He shows them their sins of pride.
[10] He gets their attention
and commands that they turn from evil.

Once again, Elihu is repeating the same false claims of the other three - that Job must be sinned to deserve this "punishment".

Then God comes into the picture & basically backs up everything Elihu had been telling Job.

Not even remotely. In fact, God points out that the arguments of Elihu and the other three are wrong. He doesn't specify Elihu, but Elihu's arguments are based on the others and at no point does God state that Elihu was accurate. In fact, God specifically states that Job spoke truthfully of him. So if you want to know who God is, you need to be reading what Job says - not Elihu.

The purpose of God's response was not to agree with Elihu. God was responding to Job - not the others. Job was God's servant. Pay attention to what Job was asking. Go back. Read his questions. Job wants God to explain himself. God responds by pointing out that the world is more complicated than he can understand and even asks Job if he wants to handle justice in the world. God's point is that Job is not in a position to understand why suffering occurs.

To conclude, this is the best proof-text in the Bible for relating God’s Sovereignty & Complete Control.

It answers every objection coming either from a non-believer or a believer concerning God’s nature.

Even so, some believers will have a difficult time worshiping a God like the one depicted in Job.

They instead want to envision some grandfatherly God that would never impose His will upon His creation.

People who will not accept the God depicted in Job are like Job who was “justifying himself when he should have been justifying God” (Job 32:2)

Job is not about your metaphysics. Job actually refutes your metaphysics and states that God is more complicated than your understanding of him.

You need to re-read the story understanding that God was not upset with Job or what he said.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Adapted from Roderick Edwards @ http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/prooftext.html

The account I’m thinking of is one where God basically makes a bet with the Devil that one of God’s faithful will not curse God no matter what happens to him.

Of course, I speak of the Jobian account, which after introducing us to Job himself, reads:


"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:6-12 NKJV)


This is the classic situation people use when they question the idea of God being in control of everything.

They claim like Satan here, that when bad things happen a person will blame/curse God or even give up their faith…especially if it is considered that God actually “allows” those bad things to happen let alone actually DECLARING those things to happen.

Look again at the text above.

Satan says for God to “stretch out His hand” against Job.

God isn’t just “allowing” Satan to torment Job, but even so, by God “allowing” Satan to torment Job, some would find God at “fault”.

After all, Job didn’t deserve this did he?


Over the course of this torment, Job loses all of his family members & his all of his possessions (Job 1:13-20). Note how he loses them.

Does Satan have the power to send down “fire of God” or “great winds”?

Yet in Job 1:22 we see Job does NOT curse/blame God.

Wow! A lot more faith then most of us.


Well, Satan comes to up the ante & we read in Job 2:3-6


Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”


So, Satan is given leave & begins to torment Job with boils all over his body (a plague).

But notice again how Job 2:3-6 is worded.

God says Satan incited God against Job…so again we see these things that are happening to Job are at God’s hand. After all, if Satan had the ability to torment Job on his own, why is he coming before God to get the deed done?

Now, even Job’s wife thinks he should curse God for what is happening yet Job does not. (Job 2:9-10)


Job’s “friends” come to “comfort” him in his grief but you can tell they really think he must have done something to deserve all of this wrath. Job begins to feel sorry for himself. (Job 2:11-13, Job 3)

As a matter of fact, it looks like his “friends” are kind of playing a gottcha game with Job – since Job had a reputation as an upright man & now it appears he is getting his due, as if he is suffering from secret sin that deserves to be corrected. (Job 4-5)

This back & forth between Job & his friends continues for several chapters until a young observer named Elihu chimes in:


So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.

Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. (Job 32:1-3)


Notice what’s happening. Job was “righteous in his own eyes” – this means Job thought it was unfair for God to “allow” all these things to be happening to him.


Permission to Republish is granted.

Con't:

This is the problem . Folks start with a philosophy on ' freewill ' or ' no freewill ' or they start with ' who moves first ' . Rather than simply reading what the bible says .

 

[Salty]

SIX HOUR WARNING

This Thread shall be closed no sooner than 430 pm EDT / 130 pm PDT

 

[MB]

God Did Not Choose to Bring Glory to His Son and The Eternal Triune Godhead, by Preventing Adam from having The FREE WILL, and Immutability, and, therefore, no robotic activity, when Adam openly and defiantly was responsible for Transgressing God's COMMAND, to him.

Therefore, Adam was responsible for having SINNED AGAINST THE ETERNALLY HOLY GOD.

All of Adam's posterity are, then, dead in trespasses and sins, as a result of Adam doing what God Had Prophecied he would.

Adam died.

In the Day you eat thereof, you will surely die.

Adam lost the capacity to have an Interaction with The God, Who is Spirit, with The Realm of The Spirit.

Adam's soul took on The Nature of Dead, Depraved, Deceived, Carnal, Flesh, WITHOUT GOD, or THE SPIRIT of GOD.

...

GOD WAS IN COMPLETE SOVEREIGN CONTROL OF ALL THINGS WHEN HE ALLOWED FOR HIS SON TO BE GLORIFIED, by HIS WORK OF REDEEMING LOST SOULS, WHO ALL BECAME LOST, IN ADAM.

Just as God was in Complete, Sovereign Control when His Son was crucified.

Acts 2:23;

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

King James Version (KJV)

...

And 'when else' is Almighty God in Complete Sovereign Control?


Now.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10

God commands by the Authority of the Word of God that you BOW to God's Sovereignty.

There it is Adam had freewill and so do we. We inherited it from Him. Scripture never says we inherited his sin nor does it ever say we lost our freewill. Therefore God is not in complete control of man's sinning . He also is not in complete control of man's will to choose which path to take in life. This is not to say that He couldn't take control if it were His will.

His will is that men seek Him by there own will. It is God's will that we surrender our wills to Him.
MB

 

[MB]

God Did Not Choose to Bring Glory to His Son and The Eternal Triune Godhead, by Preventing Adam from having The FREE WILL, and Immutability, and, therefore, no robotic activity, when Adam openly and defiantly was responsible for Transgressing God's COMMAND, to him.

Therefore, Adam was responsible for having SINNED AGAINST THE ETERNALLY HOLY GOD.

All of Adam's posterity are, then, dead in trespasses and sins, as a result of Adam doing what God Had Prophecied he would.

Adam died.

In the Day you eat thereof, you will surely die.

Adam lost the capacity to have an Interaction with The God, Who is Spirit, with The Realm of The Spirit.

Adam's soul took on The Nature of Dead, Depraved, Deceived, Carnal, Flesh, WITHOUT GOD, or THE SPIRIT of GOD.

...

GOD WAS IN COMPLETE SOVEREIGN CONTROL OF ALL THINGS WHEN HE ALLOWED FOR HIS SON TO BE GLORIFIED, by HIS WORK OF REDEEMING LOST SOULS, WHO ALL BECAME LOST, IN ADAM.

Just as God was in Complete, Sovereign Control when His Son was crucified.

Acts 2:23;

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

King James Version (KJV)

...

And 'when else' is Almighty God in Complete Sovereign Control?

No where in scripture does it ever say I must bow to God's Sovereignty, but it does say all men will bow to God. The problem is you are seeing things in scripture that Just are not there. The word Sovereign is not in scripture.
MB

 

[Alan Gross]

Whether Job, God, Elihu, or the other friends were 'upset' is what I see you are saying.

Then, that has something to do with metaphysics(?)

met·a·phys·ics
/ˌmedəˈfiziks/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
   • abstract theory with no basis in reality.

God Gave Satan permission or he had no access to bring harm, of his own volition.

 

[Alan Gross]

There it is Adam had freewill and so do we. We inherited it from Him. Scripture never says we inherited his sin nor does it ever say we lost our freewill. Therefore God is not in complete control of man's sinning . He also is not in complete control of man's will to choose which path to take in life. This is not to say that He couldn't take control if it were His will.

His will is that men seek Him by there own will. It is God's will that we surrender our wills to Him.
MB

Being honest with Scripture is an issue.

 

[Alan Gross]

No where in scripture does it ever say I must bow to God's Sovereignty, but it does say all men will bow to God. The problem is you are seeing things in scripture that Just are not there. The word Sovereign is not in scripture.
MB

It doesn't, but it does.

Good point(?)

Same (?)point(?) as always.

 

[Derf B]

My premise is that a rock is dead.

And your conclusion from that premise is that God is sovereign, and that He controls everything? Because a rock is dead?

And I guess Death is “very good”, since rocks were part of God’s creation before sin.