God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[Van]

Finally, you agree with me.

My view was, is and will be the biblical view.

 

[Van]

Did Adam die the same day he sinned? As God said he would? Why didn't he die until 900 years later if God was not talking about spiritual death? = People are spiritually dead in Adam until God raises their dead spirits from the dead. They cannot believe until then, faith is a fruit of salvation.

Please provide a quote rather than misrepresent my view.
We are saved by grace through or on the basis of faith.

 

[Van]

One of us is redefining 'dead,' but I don't think you'll find it's me. Dead is dead. No life.
I shall be interested to see you prove that. A.T. Robertson's view is generally rejected.
Scripture can certainly lead people to Christ, but only when God opens the heart to receive it And dead people's hearts are.....well.....dead.

So the spiritually dead are physically dead. Right, got it.
Still avoiding Matthew 23:13, Galatians 3:24 and on and on.
BTW, it is fiction to claim "opening the heart" is accomplished by "irresistible grace." Opening the eyes, opening the heart, or opening the mind always simply refer to enlightening through understandable explanation. Calvinist pour screwball meanings into vague or ambiguous phrases a mile a minute.

 

[Derf B]

You are 'thinking'.

Your 'thinking' is taking place using the Foundation of Reason, which remains consistent.

1+1=2, today.

1+1=2, yesterday and tomorrow.

The Absolute Almighty Sovereignty of The One and Only, True and Living Creator Triune Trice-Holy Godhead maintains The Foundation of Reason.

While The Undisputed All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and Omnipresent Sovereignty of God are providing your 'thinking' with an Unchangeable Foundation in The Realm of Reality on which 'Reason' may be performed by the Human Mind, 'Reasoning', in itself' is dependant of the Natural Sin-Cursed Nature present in the Mental Operations of every Human Being, born since the time Seth was Made in The Image of our first Greatest Fallen Grandfather, Adam.

All 'thinking' every Human Being does is NOT The THINKING of The Perfect, Sinless, Godhead.

Human Beings are NOT God and NONE of them THINK God's THOUGHTS, just because their sinful flesh 'thinks' so.

you realize that applies just as much to your OP as it does to my post and as it does to your response to my post? Which means no discussion by humans ever has any value! But God said, “Come, let us reason together.” Even God wants to relate to us, even as He related to Adam in the Garden, and called Abraham His friend.

Once again your premise is wrong, resulting in a wrong conclusion.

 

[Alan Gross]

If God has everything under His control this means even sin then show us some scripture that says so with out your imagination.involved
MB

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17

Sin is the product of The Sin Nature.

God does Not Have a Sin Nature.

God Does Not sin.

Human Beings sin AGAINST God and God is in Full Control of The Record of each Human Beings sins, for which they are ACCOUNTABLE to Him.

Salvation is Involved as The Salvation FROM SIN.

All have sinned and come short of The Glory of God.

God is Different and Hallowed, from sinners, who sin as the Natural practice, habit, and intensions of their sin-cursed will.

"You Will Not Come to Me", Jesus Said.

God is in Full Control.

 

[Alan Gross]

you realize that applies just as much to your OP as it does to my post and as it does to your response to my post? Which means no discussion by humans ever has any value! But God said, “Come, let us reason together.” Even God wants to relate to us, even as He related to Adam in the Garden, and called Abraham His friend.

Once again your premise is wrong, resulting in a wrong conclusion.

Apart from The Revealed Word of God Accompanied by The Holy Spirit of God, of course.

"It is the Spirit Who Gives Life ( where there was no life, called, "Death"); the flesh profits nothing.

The Words that I Speak to you are Spirit, and they are Life (SPIRITUAL)." John 6:63

Put this verse in your profile and spend the rest of the week on your face before God asking Him for an Enlightenment of it.

 

[MB]

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17

Sin is the product of The Sin Nature.

God does Not Have a Sin Nature.

God Does Not sin.

Human Beings sin AGAINST God and God is in Full Control of The Record of each Human Beings sins, for which they are ACCOUNTABLE to Him.

Salvation is Involved as The Salvation FROM SIN.

All have sinned and come short of The Glory of God.

God is Different and Hallowed, from sinners, who sin as the Natural practice, habit, and intensions of their sin-cursed will.

"You Will Not Come to Me", Jesus Said.

God is in Full Control.

That is not complete control. If God has complete control then man could not sin. This destroys your premises.
MB.

 

[timtofly]

One of us is redefining 'dead,' but I don't think you'll find it's me. Dead is dead. No life.
I shall be interested to see you prove that. A.T. Robertson's view is generally rejected.
Scripture can certainly lead people to Christ, but only when God opens the heart to receive it And dead people's hearts are.....well.....dead.

Since we are not talking about dead people but living people, does that change anything? Talking about people in death and hell, is futile.

There is no dead spirit, spirit is alive. There is no dead soul, soul is alive. There is no dead physical body. We are alive.

Who are the dead? Dead in Christ? Physically dead. None of those apply to your point. There is no spiritual death as you are attempting to define. A dead spirit is a demon, and reprobate mind. Living or physically dead, I agree, they cannot be saved. No choice available. You cannot say a new born, or even an 8 month person in the womb has a reprobate mind. It is not biblical. Being sealed at conception does not save, any more than baptism of an infant. Nor is it misleading like telling a human they are free to be as wicked as they please, because they were baptized as a infant. Who in their right mind would say infant baptism and being sealed since conception is salvation? No one approaches a sinner and tells them they are sealed and try to explain the Holy Spirit to them. It is an understood condition. Pointing out their fallen nature because all are born sinners and without choice is a start. They have no choice being sinners nor being sealed. No one wakes up one day with the thought, I have been sealed my whole life. Now I should probably accept Salvation. No one is even told by God to wake up and realize they are sealed, and it is time to accept Salvation.

The Holy Spirit is calling all the time. God sends people their way. A person can start reading anything that has God's Word. Perhaps some like the apostle Paul, get a bright blinding light and a direct call from God Himself. All people are different. Not one individual exactly the same. But to take matters into one's own thinking, and form a theology with a few words out of context, and then compare them to all verses in the Bible to prove a point, is not of God. Yes, even in the OT is the claim that God created some, just for destruction. That is looking back in hindsight.

God created Judas and he committed suicide. Should we form the Judas doctrine that only those who commit suicide can be saved, because God chose a disciple who did just that? Should we take all foolish claims in the Bible as proof of a false doctrine or theology?

 

[timtofly]

You are 'thinking'.

Your 'thinking' is taking place using the Foundation of Reason, which remains consistent.

1+1=2, today.

1+1=2, yesterday and tomorrow.

The Absolute Almighty Sovereignty of The One and Only, True and Living Creator Triune Trice-Holy Godhead maintains The Foundation of Reason.

While The Undisputed All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and Omnipresent Sovereignty of God are providing your 'thinking' with an Unchangeable Foundation in The Realm of Reality on which 'Reason' may be performed by the Human Mind, 'Reasoning', in itself' is dependant of the Natural Sin-Cursed Nature present in the Mental Operations of every Human Being, born since the time Seth was Made in The Image of our first Greatest Fallen Grandfather, Adam.

All 'thinking' every Human Being does is NOT The THINKING of The Perfect, Sinless, Godhead.

Human Beings are NOT God and NONE of them THINK God's THOUGHTS, just because their sinful flesh 'thinks' so.

Then why quote so many fallen humans?

 

[Alan Gross]

That is not complete control. If God has complete control then man could not sin. This destroys your premises.
MB.

God Did Not Choose to Bring Glory to His Son and The Eternal Triune Godhead, by Preventing Adam from having The FREE WILL, and Immutability, and, therefore, no robotic activity, when Adam openly and defiantly was responsible for Transgressing God's COMMAND, to him.

Therefore, Adam was responsible for having SINNED AGAINST THE ETERNALLY HOLY GOD.

All of Adam's posterity are, then, dead in trespasses and sins, as a result of Adam doing what God Had Prophecied he would.

Adam died.

In the Day you eat thereof, you will surely die.

Adam lost the capacity to have an Interaction with The God, Who is Spirit, with The Realm of The Spirit.

Adam's soul took on The Nature of Dead, Depraved, Deceived, Carnal, Flesh, WITHOUT GOD, or THE SPIRIT of GOD.

...

GOD WAS IN COMPLETE SOVEREIGN CONTROL OF ALL THINGS WHEN HE ALLOWED FOR HIS SON TO BE GLORIFIED, by HIS WORK OF REDEEMING LOST SOULS, WHO ALL BECAME LOST, IN ADAM.

Just as God was in Complete, Sovereign Control when His Son was crucified.

Acts 2:23;

“Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:”

King James Version (KJV)

...

And 'when else' is Almighty God in Complete Sovereign Control?


Now.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10

God commands by the Authority of the Word of God that you BOW to God's Sovereignty.

 

[timtofly]

"You Will Not Come to Me", Jesus Said.

God is in Full Control.

Taking words out of context is not sound reasoning. At least explain a little?

God forces people to not come to Jesus? Sure that is what Satan does. He prevents people coming to Jesus, with many road blocks. Would that not be important to disclose. Has nothing to do with free will. A human has many free choices. None that day that led them to Christ. Satan was available to mislead one for another day. God's Sovereignty remained unchanged. Satan decieved all, into thinking that God was never around.

 

[AustinC]

My view was, is and will be the biblical view.

Yet, not God's view.

I see Mormon's, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims and many others using the Bible to create a biblical view. But, their biblical view is not God's view.

Van, many people have shown you where you are in error, yet you stand your ground in opposition, believing you are solely correct and all others wrong. When you are addressed, you then claim you are a victim or that others have failed to actually address you.

Now, I know you will keep pushing and pushing because you cannot imagine you are wrong. I accept this about you. What I don't accept is that your view is somehow God's view when many people have now stood in opposition to your view.

 

[Alan Gross]

Hebrews 4:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

 

[timtofly]

Now.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10

God commands by the Authority of the Word of God that you BOW to God's Sovereignty.

YES!!! Adam and all his descendants have free will. Now you can accept, or reject. You cannot prove one way or the other.

 

[George Antonios]

Now, I know you will keep pushing and pushing because you cannot imagine you are wrong. I accept this about you. What I don't accept is that your view is somehow God's view when many people have now stood in opposition to your view.

Who made you his parent?

 

[AustinC]

Taking words out of context is not sound reasoning. At least explain a little?

God forces people to not come to Jesus? Sure that is what Satan does. He prevents people coming to Jesus, with many road blocks. Would that not be important to disclose. Has nothing to do with free will. A human has many free choices. None that day that led them to Christ. Satan was available to mislead one for another day. God's Sovereignty remained unchanged. Satan decieved all, into thinking that God was never around.

God doesn't have to force anyone to not come. By the very nature of man, a human will be in abject rebellion against God. "No one seeks after God, not even one" (Read Romans 3).
By man's very nature, he is dead in his trespasses and sins. He is imprisoned by his sins. He is hopelessly lost in the sea of his own iniquity.
My goodness, what a foolish thing to even imagine that God forces people to not come to Jesus. What perverted thought that is.

The question you must ask is this: Knowing that man is in complete rebellion and man's sins are a stench before the throne of God, what obligation does God have to free even one man from the prison of that man's own making?

Please answer that one question. Tell me what obligates God to free even one man from the prison of that man's own making.

 

[AustinC]

Who made you his parent?

LOL

 

[Alan Gross]

Taking words out of context is not sound reasoning. At least explain a little?

God forces people to not come to Jesus? Sure that is what Satan does. He prevents people coming to Jesus, with many road blocks. Would that not be important to disclose. Has nothing to do with free will. A human has many free choices. None that day that led them to Christ. Satan was available to mislead one for another day. God's Sovereignty remained unchanged. Satan decieved all, into thinking that God was never around.

Human Beings have no will to come to God.

Human Beings Hate God and Love sin.

All Human Beings are children of Wrath and honestly DESERVE The Suffering and punishment of Hell, Forever, for their personal sins which ARE AGAINST AN ETERNAL GOD and MUST MEET WITH ETERNAL JUDGMENT.

All Human Beings Have No Capacity, Ability, Choosing, Deciding, Praying, Finitely 'believing', calling, or any other word describing their utter and total impotence and depravity as Spiritually dead to God worms.

You Must Be Born Again.

How is that 'out of context', for God-Hating sinners, who ARE CONDEMNED:

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." John 3:19

 

[George Antonios]

You know, I'm a pastor (by God's grace), and an ex-Calvinist. That means I'm used to disagreements from many a quarter, but I've got to tell you Calvinist brethren, no one else looks-down-their-nose at those who disagree with them like Calvinists tend to do. Not all of course. One of the men in our church is a Calvinist. He is a kind and humble and gracious man. Interacting here with many self-righteous, pompous, conceited Calvinists makes me appreciate his spirit all the more.

 

[Alan Gross]

YES!!! Adam and all his descendants have free will. Now you can accept, or reject. You cannot prove one way or the other.

Every Human Being and bird HAVE THE FREEDOM to Fly to The Moon.

Their Free Will does not, however, have the ABILITY to Fly to The Moon.

I see where AustinC is asking you about 'God's Obligation'.

If I ask you, "why would God Save you, or anyone else?"

Would you say that God is Obligated?

Remember, with that reasoning of yours, on God's Playing Field that GOD HATES SIN.