God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[timtofly]

I am saying that he was not perfect in the sense of being totally free from fault. The word in question is tam (Strongs 8535). It is applied to Jacob (who was certainly far from perfect) in Genesis 25:27 where it is usually translated 'mild.' It tends elsewhere to have the meaning of integrity or completeness.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 applies.

Addendum: I don't know Hebrew. What I have written above has come out of a Word Study Dictionary.
However, I do know some Greek and the Greek word teleios, which is also translated 'perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10 and elsewhere, is rendered as 'men' or 'mature' in 1 Corinthians 14:20, and as 'complete' elsewhere. In secular Greek it can mean 'ripe.' An apple might be ripe and perfect for eating, yet have the odd spot on it that needs to be cut out.

I understand what you are attempting to point out. The issue is, did Job think he was self righteous his whole life? If he was not aware, was he self righteous? Was he only self righteous after he justified what he was going through? Yes, he started to confess, and kept confessing each day forward. I do not see how Job was perfect by choice. Does that mean, Job was without sin? NO! Did job have to choose sin?

Obviously, he was descended from Adam. Did Job freely choose not to sin, yes!! Did God bless Job, because he was without blame? Because, we are not told that Job chose not to sin his whole life, because God was constantly blessing him. For practicality's sake, Job just got into a habit of making the right choices. That would not make Job righteous in God's eyes, but God did bless Job anyway.

Look at Enoch. He did the same thing as Job. God told Enoch, he would never die. It seems suspicious that this guy named Elihu shows up out of the blue who knew exactly what it means to be righteous and in 100% agreement with God. How many people born in a sinful state seemingly on their own without God’s alleged help does it take to prove free will, and that God seals all humanity at conception with the Holy Spirit? All humanity even with a will set on destruction are free to choose at any time, a different course. One to eternal life, and away from destruction.

What was predestined, was that Jesus would come and be the Atonement. Only then would God grant the power. Yet thousands upon thousands of people in the OT, took advantage of God’s restoration and they did it in Faith looking forward. We have to do the same in Faith looking backwards. Yet all even to this day are still, like Paul, looking for the whole spiritual restoration. We are told that only two witnesses in the OT, received the whole restoration. Today, in Christ, we are only whole, in the power of the Holy Spirit. God allowed us His own Spirit in place of our own. And that only happens when we pray like Solomon. 2 Chronicles 7:14. We are God’s people with God's Holy Spirit.

 

[timtofly]

How did you get that from my post.
God played Satan like a fiddle. God correctly stated that Job was blameless. God did not say Job was perfect. Had God said that, then God would have lied. Job 1 tells us that Job made sacrifices for his family in case they had sinned. Job was walking upright with God (blameless, not perfect).
God points out Job to Satan so that God can show Satan and all of us that the gift of faith brings with it... perseverance. God enables Job to persevere through this extreme trial precisely because God had given Job faith in the full Sovereignty of God.
Job is perhaps my favorite book in the Bible. It reveals to us the problem of pain and the response of the upright in the midst of pain.
I suggest you actually read the book from cover to cover in one sitting. It's fabulous.

Upright:
adjective. The definition of upright is something or someone who is strictly honest, or something that is vertical or erect. A person who is a good citizen who has never ever told a lie is an example of an upright citizen.

Somone that has never told a lie? James says that is not possible. How righteous do you define Job as being without any blame at all?

Job had one fault. Justifying himself. It only happened, after Satan put him through the ringer, and took everything away, except his life, and his wife. Satan left Eve with Adam as well??

Yet you claim I am silly?

 

[percho]

The very earliest picture and or description we have of Job.

Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me. Psalm 51:5

Why? What did Job have to do with that?

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:7

What did Job have to do with that?

God better be Sovereign or Job and we be in trouble.

 

[1689Dave]

Dead Spirits? Even demons believe and tremble, can you get a deader spirit than a demon? James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe it, and tremble."

demons believe based on sight and experience. It's nothing like the new birth. You believe the same way they do if you are not born again.

 

[timtofly]

Are we placed and sealed in Christ by our own choice? Is God like an employee at the meat counter of our grocery store? He just takes our order?

Are these rational questions?

We are sealed from conception, it is not our choice.

God does not serve meat at the local deli.

The order that Limited Atonement demands, God despises. You can stop asking for Limited Atonement.

Stop requesting irresistible Grace. Just ask for Grace. It sounds like some can resist it. They really can't. They just refuse to use it.

Stop asking for perseverance. Killing one's self daily is not being a martyr. It is just denying the flesh.

All will be elect, automatically, once they accept the Atonement. That is a given, no need to order that any more.

Yes, we are all depraved. Stop ordering totalitarianism.

We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Salvation is accepting the full package. We can become reprobate and no longer sealed. There is demonic activity that is proof. Beyond that is speculation about what happens in the occult world and we are to remain separated from spiritual things, outside of The Holy Spirit, himself.

 

[timtofly]

demons believe based on sight and experience. It's nothing like the new birth. You believe the same way they do if you are not born again.

Why use the term dead spirit? That is a demon.

 

[1689Dave]

Why use the term dead spirit? That is a demon.

Some believe they are the dead Nephilim.

 

[timtofly]

Some believe they are the dead Nephilim.

They were dead spirits, God killed them. There have been plenty of reprobate humans after the Flood. Way more than enough.

Still not the point. A dead spirit is still a demon.

 

[1689Dave]

They were dead spirits, God killed them. There have been plenty of reprobate humans after the Flood. Way more than enough.

Still not the point. A dead spirit is still a demon.

Or humans without the new birth.

 

[Derf B]

Wait? What? Satan has no free will. BUT no free thoughts? What is your proof?

You need to read my post, and the one I was responding to more carefully.

 

[AustinC]

Upright:
adjective. The definition of upright is something or someone who is strictly honest, or something that is vertical or erect. A person who is a good citizen who has never ever told a lie is an example of an upright citizen.

Somone that has never told a lie? James says that is not possible. How righteous do you define Job as being without any blame at all?

Job had one fault. Justifying himself. It only happened, after Satan put him through the ringer, and took everything away, except his life, and his wife. Satan left Eve with Adam as well??

Yet you claim I am silly?

You are entirely silly when you stated that Job was perfect. That is your misunderstanding of God which you seem determined to argue, despite its heresy.

 

[AustinC]

Why use the term dead spirit? That is a demon.

Demons are dead in their sins. God will never extend grace to them. They will eternally be dead in their sins.
This is also true for every human who is not extended grace. The fact that God extends grace to humans is a mystery to the angels of God and a bitter anger to the demons destined to hell.

 

[timtofly]

Or humans without the new birth.

Now you sound like a Mormon, where even demons can be saved. They misinterpret Jesus Spirit after leaving the dead body, went to hell and preached to devils.

Some on this forum deny all OT Saints were resurrected, when Atonement happened on the Cross, and the veil of the Temple was rent from top to bottom.

What is up, now even demons can be saved?


That is the problem with Reformed theology, that I did not even address in your quote. You end up in Mormon territory. Human spirit is not dead. The spirit is with God, until a reprobate mind. A reprobate mind, is past the pardonable sin. Total rejection of the Holy Spirit. They are no longer sealed at all. Spiritual death means we are separated from our spirit, not that our spirit is dead.

The condition Reformed theology claims all humanity is. If we are not sealed from conception, we tend to think that God has to chose only some. See, the rest are reprobate even before birth. That is unbiblical. Reformed theology damns millions to death before they were born. The RCC with infant baptism took choice away after birth. No wonder liberal reformed theology thinks abortion is ok, since no one is sealed at conception. God does not care what happens before birth. The biggest lie of Satan, and deception given to the church.

Wake up people!!!

 

[timtofly]

You are entirely silly when you stated that Job was perfect. That is your misunderstanding of God which you seem determined to argue, despite its heresy.

Now you are just silly thinking that God cannot perfect living humans. I thought you claimed God was Sovereign. I guess you get to pick and choose God’s Sovereignty? How can you choose without free will? Silly thinking.

 

[Van]

Dead spirits cannot discern spiritual truth, namely God. God must save a person by giving them a resurrected new heart before they can believe.

Now we get the Calvinist redefinition of the meaning of "dead." But those "dead" men of Matthew 23:13 were entering the kingdom. Plus of course, in Romans, God makes known spiritual truth lost folks. The "T" has no support in scripture, it is a fiction and is destructive to ministry.

 

[Derf B]

Are we placed and sealed in Christ by our own choice? Is God like an employee at the meat counter of our grocery store? He just takes our order?

God chose to send His Son. We choose to believe.
God’s choice is that all men believe. Most men choose not to believe.

God, in your poor analogy, is the owner of the grocery store, and the supplier of the groceries. Believers are the employees, and unbelievers are the customers. Some choose to shop and be saved, and others don’t.

Revelation 3:18 (KJV) I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

[timtofly]

Demons are dead in their sins. God will never extend grace to them. They will eternally be dead in their sins.
This is also true for every human who is not extended grace. The fact that God extends grace to humans is a mystery to the angels of God and a bitter anger to the demons destined to hell.

God extended grace to all humans at conception. At conception all were sealed by the Holy Spirit. We agree then. We are not angels and I am not a demon. I can only take your word that you are not reprobate. Cause if you are, as a demon, only bitter anger, as you claim.

 

[1689Dave]

Now we get the Calvinist redefinition of the meaning of "dead." But those "dead" men of Matthew 23:13 were entering the kingdom. Plus of course, in Romans, God makes known spiritual truth lost folks. The "T" has no support in scripture, it is a fiction and is destructive to ministry.

So you saved yourself? Sin did not kill you?

 

[1689Dave]

Now you sound like a Mormon, where even demons can be saved. They misinterpret Jesus Spirit after leaving the dead body, went to hell and preached to devils.

Some on this forum deny all OT Saints were resurrected, when Atonement happened on the Cross, and the veil of the Temple was rent from top to bottom.

What is up, now even demons can be saved?


That is the problem with Reformed theology, that I did not even address in your quote. You end up in Mormon territory. Human spirit is not dead. The spirit is with God, until a reprobate mind. A reprobate mind, is past the pardonable sin. Total rejection of the Holy Spirit. They are no longer sealed at all. Spiritual death means we are separated from our spirit, not that our spirit is dead.

The condition Reformed theology claims all humanity is. If we are not sealed from conception, we tend to think that God has to chose only some. See, the rest are reprobate even before birth. That is unbiblical. Reformed theology damns millions to death before they were born. The RCC with infant baptism took choice away after birth. No wonder liberal reformed theology thinks abortion is ok, since no one is sealed at conception. God does not care what happens before birth. The biggest lie of Satan, and deception given to the church.

Wake up people!!!

Adam damned everyone before they were born. Babies who never consciously sinned die because the wages of sin is death.

 

[Van]

Indeed. @Van confuses 'dead' with 'not very well.'

So does Galatians 3:24 contradict any of this? Not at all, and it is impossible that it should. All that verse says is that the preaching of the law brings people to faith. You look elsewhere to find that faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).

Here we get first the redefinition of "dead" which is not found, then the misrepresentation of Ephesians 2:8 claiming the gift is not salvation, but "faith." However, the grammar precludes this view.

On and on folks the Calvinists repeat the same falsehood, such as Galatians :24 does not mean what it says, scripture can lead the lost to Christ.