God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[Van]

Are we placed and sealed in Christ by our own choice? Is God like an employee at the meat counter of our grocery store? He just takes our order?

I have answered this absurdity dozens of times, yet the profoundly false question is asked and asked. Why, deflection on display. Salvation does not, repeat NOT depend on the man that wills or works for salvation, but on God alone!!!! Should I repeat this again and again?

 

[Van]

So you saved yourself? Sin did not kill you?

On and on folks, deflection and misrepresentation is all they have. God saves us, no one saves themselves.

 

[1689Dave]

On and on folks, deflection and misrepresentation is all they have. God saves us, no one saves themselves.

Finally, you agree with me.

 

[1689Dave]

Now we get the Calvinist redefinition of the meaning of "dead." But those "dead" men of Matthew 23:13 were entering the kingdom. Plus of course, in Romans, God makes known spiritual truth lost folks. The "T" has no support in scripture, it is a fiction and is destructive to ministry.

Did Adam die the same day he sinned? As God said he would? Why didn't he die until 900 years later if God was not talking about spiritual death? = People are spiritually dead in Adam until God raises their dead spirits from the dead. They cannot believe until then, faith is a fruit of salvation.

 

[timtofly]

You need to read my post, and the one I was responding to more carefully.

Sorry, still not sure. The post you quoted did not mention Satan. I was asking why. Even complete control and Sovereignty would allow Satan to incite God as one of Satan's thoughts. Reformed theology is so messy, that any belief is possible. As possible as God's Sovereignty. They just get to arbitrate what is Sovereign. Obviously, to them, being sealed at conception by the Holy Spirit is not Sovereign. There is no proof either way, unless there is and they cannot find the proof to complete their Sovereign view of God.

Paul says we are sealed until the day of redemption. Define redemption. You still do not have a start. Well the start happened on the Cross. The Atonement was the start. The Cross was the beginning of the Lamb's book of life. It happened before creation. It happened to Adam. It happened to all in Adam, before all were born. It happened individually at conception. It happens until redemption. Or death. It is not settled if some even in death, will have a choice at the GWT. The Lamb's book of life is still sealed. No names added or removed.

Satan's thoughts are not part of God’s control, and if that was your gist, then great. Now if we have free will, and angels do not, may it be that angels can have original thoughts, and humans cannot? Just saying. A God who planned it all out planned for a Satan that could have thoughts unique. GOD in eternity cannot change. Satan would be the means of change, and God countered every thought. Should not Satan be the tool and not humanity? We are not pawns, Satan just wants us to believe that. It takes the focus off him, and causes us to stumble in our own misery like Job.

 

[Derf B]

Sorry, still not sure. The post you quoted did not mention Satan. I was asking why. Even complete control and Sovereignty would allow Satan to incite God as one of Satan's thoughts. Reformed theology is so messy, that any belief is possible. As possible as God's Sovereignty. They just get to arbitrate what is Sovereign. Obviously, to them, being sealed at conception by the Holy Spirit is not Sovereign. There is no proof either way, unless there is and they cannot find the proof to complete their Sovereign view of God.

Paul says we are sealed until the day of redemption. Define redemption. You still do not have a start. Well the start happened on the Cross. The Atonement was the start. The Cross was the beginning of the Lamb's book of life. It happened before creation. It happened to Adam. It happened to all in Adam, before all were born. It happened individually at conception. It happens until redemption. Or death. It is not settled if some even in death, will have a choice at the GWT. The Lamb's book of life is still sealed. No names added or removed.

Satan's thoughts are not part of God’s control, and if that was your gist, then great. Now if we have free will, and angels do not, may it be that angels can have original thoughts, and humans cannot? Just saying. A God who planned it all out planned for a Satan that could have thoughts unique. GOD in eternity cannot change. Satan would be the means of change, and God countered every thought. Should not Satan be the tool and not humanity? We are not pawns, Satan just wants us to believe that. It takes the focus off him, and causes us to stumble in our own misery like Job.

Redemption is when we rise from the dead, never to die again. We are redeemed from the power of death, otherwise known as the gates of hell. While In this life, we are promised redemption, but it isn’t fully realized until the resurrection. But that’s a little off topic for this thread.

 

[timtofly]

Did Adam die the same day he sinned? As God said he would? Why didn't he die until 900 years later if God was not talking about spiritual death? = People are spiritually dead in Adam until God raises their dead spirits from the dead. They cannot believe until then, faith is a fruit of salvation.

Round 2?

No dead spirits. They are demons.

Adam's spirit is alive and still with God. Only when the Lamb opens the 5th seal in Revelation 6, will Adam and all in Christ be restored to their spirit.

Spiritual death is the spirit being separated from us at conception. God then seals us with the Holy Spirit at conception.

Adam's soul separated from this flesh 900 years later. The soul was in Abraham's bosom until the cross. 3.5 days later it ascended to Paradise and is under the alter, waiting for the 5th seal to be opened.

No dead spirits, unless reprobate, then a demon. No dead souls until the lake of fire, and the second death. The only dead thing, is cursed human flesh. Came from dust, returns to dust, dead. Cannot enter Paradise. Never could after the Fall, still cannot today. Will never in the future. Dust remains dust, will all be burned in fire as this reality is dissolved. God says a new glorified body will happen. Yes, the opening of the 5th and 6th seal. Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were killed for the word of God, and for the testimony which they maintained.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, Lord, which art holy and true! dost not thou judge and avenge our blood on them, that dwell on the earth?

11 And long white robes were given unto every one, and it was said unto them, that they should rest for a little season until their fellow servants, and their brethren that should be killed even as they were, were fulfilled.

What does John mean by killed like they were? They were dead in Christ. Redeemed in Christ. There are hundreds of ways to physically die. This refers to the death caused by Adam's disobedience. They received their glorified bodies. Soon all the church, then all of living Israel who freely accept the Atonement. Then the Nations themselves will have one last choice given to living humanity. Then the Atonement will be complete. All the world and kingdoms given to God from Jesus Christ the Lamb. Then the Second Coming.

 

[timtofly]

Redemption is when we rise from the dead, never to die again. We are redeemed from the power of death, otherwise known as the gates of hell. While In this life, we are promised redemption, but it isn’t fully realized until the resurrection. But that’s a little off topic for this thread.

This thread is about God's Sovereignty. What is off topic? The title even says EVERYTHING. blank post would be off topic.

 

[Derf B]

The account I’m thinking of is one where God basically makes a bet with the Devil that one of God’s faithful will not curse God no matter what happens to him.

I think you need a better definition of “sovereignty”. It doesn’t mean to have everything under complete control, nor does the book of Job support that. God gave Satan permission to afflict Job, but He didn’t tell him how to do it—just the limits Satan had to abide by: spare his person (the first time) and spare his life (the second time).

Your premise is false, therefore your conclusion is false.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Here we get first the redefinition of "dead" which is not found,

One of us is redefining 'dead,' but I don't think you'll find it's me. Dead is dead. No life.

then the misrepresentation of Ephesians 2:8 claiming the gift is not salvation, but "faith." However, the grammar precludes this view.

I shall be interested to see you prove that. A.T. Robertson's view is generally rejected.

On and on folks the Calvinists repeat the same falsehood, such as Galatians :24 does not mean what it says, scripture can lead the lost to Christ.

Scripture can certainly lead people to Christ, but only when God opens the heart to receive it And dead people's hearts are.....well.....dead.

 

[Alan Gross]

I think you need a better definition of “sovereignty”. It doesn’t mean to have everything under complete control, nor does the book of Job support that. God gave Satan permission to afflict Job, but He didn’t tell him how to do it—just the limits Satan had to abide by: spare his person (the first time) and spare his life (the second time).

Your premise is false, therefore your conclusion is false.

You are 'thinking'.

Your 'thinking' is taking place using the Foundation of Reason, which remains consistent.

1+1=2, today.

1+1=2, yesterday and tomorrow.

The Absolute Almighty Sovereignty of The One and Only, True and Living Creator Triune Trice-Holy Godhead maintains The Foundation of Reason.

While The Undisputed All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and Omnipresent Sovereignty of God are providing your 'thinking' with an Unchangeable Foundation in The Realm of Reality on which 'Reason' may be performed by the Human Mind, 'Reasoning', in itself' is dependant of the Natural Sin-Cursed Nature present in the Mental Operations of every Human Being, born since the time Seth was Made in The Image of our first Greatest Fallen Grandfather, Adam.

All 'thinking' every Human Being does is NOT The THINKING of The Perfect, Sinless, Godhead.

Human Beings are NOT God and NONE of them THINK God's THOUGHTS, just because their sinful flesh 'thinks' so.

 

[George Antonios]

Van, the Bible teaches predestination. Have you simply deleted these passages from your Bible so you can deny them? Or do you prefer to twist them in ways that castrate what Paul said?
What I know about you is that you have a poor understanding of John Calvin and you apply your ignorance to all person's who attest to the teaching of the Bible as it relates to predestination.

Your assertions are therefore illegitimate and every Christian should rightfully treat them as such.

There isn't ONE verse in the Bible about predestination to salvation.

That was covered, and remained unanswered by defining cross-referencing scriptures, in an entire thread.

Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

 

[George Antonios]

The Greek word in question is proorizo. It is found six times in the NT.
Four times it is translated 'predestinate' in the KJV ('predestine' in the ESV). Twice in Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 1:11.
It is translated as 'ordain' in 1 Corinthians 2:7 ('decreed' in the ESV) and as 'determine beforehand' in Acts of the Apostles 4:28 ('predestine' in the ESV).

Readers may like to look these verses up to check the contexts and to compare with other trustworthy translations.

There isn't ONE verse in the Bible about predestination to salvation.

That was covered, and remained unanswered by defining cross-referencing scriptures, in an entire thread.

Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

 

[George Antonios]

Adapted from Roderick Edwards @ http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/prooftext.html

The account I’m thinking of is one where God basically makes a bet with the Devil that one of God’s faithful will not curse God no matter what happens to him.

Of course, I speak of the Jobian account, which after introducing us to Job himself, reads:


"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1:6-12 NKJV)


This is the classic situation people use when they question the idea of God being in control of everything.

They claim like Satan here, that when bad things happen a person will blame/curse God or even give up their faith…especially if it is considered that God actually “allows” those bad things to happen let alone actually DECLARING those things to happen.

Look again at the text above.

Satan says for God to “stretch out His hand” against Job.

God isn’t just “allowing” Satan to torment Job, but even so, by God “allowing” Satan to torment Job, some would find God at “fault”.

After all, Job didn’t deserve this did he?


Over the course of this torment, Job loses all of his family members & his all of his possessions (Job 1:13-20). Note how he loses them.

Does Satan have the power to send down “fire of God” or “great winds”?

Yet in Job 1:22 we see Job does NOT curse/blame God.

Wow! A lot more faith then most of us.


Well, Satan comes to up the ante & we read in Job 2:3-6


Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”


So, Satan is given leave & begins to torment Job with boils all over his body (a plague).

But notice again how Job 2:3-6 is worded.

God says Satan incited God against Job…so again we see these things that are happening to Job are at God’s hand. After all, if Satan had the ability to torment Job on his own, why is he coming before God to get the deed done?

Now, even Job’s wife thinks he should curse God for what is happening yet Job does not. (Job 2:9-10)


Job’s “friends” come to “comfort” him in his grief but you can tell they really think he must have done something to deserve all of this wrath. Job begins to feel sorry for himself. (Job 2:11-13, Job 3)

As a matter of fact, it looks like his “friends” are kind of playing a gottcha game with Job – since Job had a reputation as an upright man & now it appears he is getting his due, as if he is suffering from secret sin that deserves to be corrected. (Job 4-5)

This back & forth between Job & his friends continues for several chapters until a young observer named Elihu chimes in:


So these three men ceased answering Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.

Also against his three friends his wrath was aroused, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job. (Job 32:1-3)


Notice what’s happening. Job was “righteous in his own eyes” – this means Job thought it was unfair for God to “allow” all these things to be happening to him.


Permission to Republish is granted.

Con't:

Have any of your children (if you have/had them) ever died?

 

[AustinC]

There isn't ONE verse in the Bible about predestination to salvation.

That was covered, and remained unanswered by defining cross-referencing scriptures, in an entire thread.

Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

 

[George Antonios]

View attachment 3950

Please use a bigger font next time.

 

[AustinC]

There isn't ONE verse in the Bible about predestination to salvation.

That was covered, and remained unanswered by defining cross-referencing scriptures, in an entire thread.

Prove it wrong: There is not one verse about predestination to salvation

You have made a universal statement. The onus of proof is on you.

 

[George Antonios]

You have made a universal statement. The onus of proof is on you.
View attachment 3951

 

[MB]

You have made a universal statement. The onus of proof is on you.
View attachment 3951

Maybe your suffering from hallucinogens and delusions of grandeur. There is no predestination to Salvation in scripture .And you didn't show any such verse or proof it even exist. It came right out of your imagination. Your the one with the claim prove it.
MB
.

 

[MB]

You are 'thinking'.

Your 'thinking' is taking place using the Foundation of Reason, which remains consistent.

1+1=2, today.

1+1=2, yesterday and tomorrow.

The Absolute Almighty Sovereignty of The One and Only, True and Living Creator Triune Trice-Holy Godhead maintains The Foundation of Reason.

While The Undisputed All-Powerful, All-Knowing, and Omnipresent Sovereignty of God are providing your 'thinking' with an Unchangeable Foundation in The Realm of Reality on which 'Reason' may be performed by the Human Mind, 'Reasoning', in itself' is dependant of the Natural Sin-Cursed Nature present in the Mental Operations of every Human Being, born since the time Seth was Made in The Image of our first Greatest Fallen Grandfather, Adam.

All 'thinking' every Human Being does is NOT The THINKING of The Perfect, Sinless, Godhead.

Human Beings are NOT God and NONE of them THINK God's THOUGHTS, just because their sinful flesh 'thinks' so.

If God has everything under His control this means even sin then show us some scripture that says so with out your imagination.involved
MB