God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[1689Dave]

Now we have the subject change effort. Because we can choose to follow God's will for our life, we ask for the path which provides the greatest glory to God.

But God works in us to will and do of his good pleasure. How can we choose to follow his plan unless he reveals it and motivates us to do it? Doing what you think might be his plan can lead to hell.

 

[Van]

But God works in us to will and do of his good pleasure. How can we choose to follow his plan unless he reveals it and motivates us to do it? Doing what you think might be his plan can lead to hell.

Yet another change the subject post. When we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, then God works in us to will and do His good please.

But before we are placed and sealed in Christ, we are under sin, and are led to Christ by scripture, and the witnesses thereof. It is through the call of the gospel, we are drawn to Christ, as we behold Him high and lifted up, dying for our sin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No need to address this twaddle, I have presented the biblical refutations many time.

In chess-playing circles this is known as resignation.

 

[Van]

In chess-playing circles this is known as resignation.

No it is you claiming victory as you run from truth using disparagement and deflection.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No it is you claiming victory as you run from truth using disparagement and deflection.

 

[1689Dave]

Yet another change the subject post. When we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, then God works in us to will and do His good please.

But before we are placed and sealed in Christ, we are under sin, and are led to Christ by scripture, and the witnesses thereof. It is through the call of the gospel, we are drawn to Christ, as we behold Him high and lifted up, dying for our sin.

God must give you a new heart before you would ever believe and repent. If not, you have the wrong god.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

 

[timtofly]

If Job was 'perfect,' why do you think he needed to repent in dust and ashes (Job 42:6)?

The point was that he was. Are you saying Job was not perfect in chapter 1, because of a verse in chapter 42?

 

[Derf B]

Elihu is also depicted as being upset with Job’s “friends” because they were missing the point of what this was all about. Elihu wants to deal with the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature instead of Job’s individual experience.

After all, Job’s “friends” were using “logical” arguments…but for all the “logic” is ignored the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature.


In Job 33:8-12, Elihu recounts Job’s argument/complaint & then Elihu begins his answer which reads:


“Surely you have spoken in my hearing, And I have heard the sound of your words, saying, ‘I am pure, without transgression; I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me. Yet He finds occasions against me, He counts me as His enemy; He puts my feet in the stocks, He watches all my paths.’ “Look, in this you are not righteous. I will answer you, For God is greater than man.


So, Elihu correctly relates that Job’s problem is that he thinks it is unfair that God “finds occasions against” him & then Elihu tells Job he is not righteous to be thinking this say & that the issue is that God is greater than man.

Elihu spends the next few chapters laying out the case that God as the Creator can do what He wants with His creation AND it is still “fair”.

Elihu sums up his case by saying:


Oh, that Job were tried to the utmost, Because his answers are like those of wicked men! (Job 34:35) Moreover Elihu answered and said: “Do you think this is right?

Do you say, ‘My righteousness is more than God’s’?

For you say, ‘What advantage will it be to You?

What profit shall I have, more than if I had sinned?’ (Job 35:1-3)


What??? Poor Job was minding his own business & had his entire family wiped out, his possessions destroyed or taken, & is suffering from boils from head to feet & yet Elihu is so cold (might we say “mean” & “hurtful”, or “unChrist-like” -- comments like this against Elihu we would often hear even from the mouths of so-called Christians) that he is saying that Job is behaving like a wicked man in his answers.

How could Elihu be so insensitive?


Then God comes into the picture & basically backs up everything Elihu had been telling Job.

In Job 38-40 God makes the distinction that He is God the Creator & we are mere creatures.

Then God asks Job to answer:


Moreover, the LORD answered Job, and said: “Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?

He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”

Then Job answered the LORD and said: “Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth. Once I have spoken, but I will not answer; Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: “Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: “Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? (Job 40:1-8)



Notice how Job finally realizes the OVER-ARCHING PREMISE of God’s nature – that God is God & we are not.

God then asks Job if man’s judgment should be put in place of God’s judgment so that man can decide what is & isn’t just/fair.


God continues to make the case that He is the Creator & can do what He wants with His creation & by the time we get to Job 42, Job now understands & repents.

God goes on to correct Job’s friends for not speaking “what is right” of God.

Then God restores & even increases Job’s possessions & gives him new sons & daughters. But even had God NOT restored Job’s possessions & family, God would STILL be righteous & just.


To conclude, this is the best proof-text in the Bible for relating God’s Sovereignty & Complete Control.

It answers every objection coming either from a non-believer or a believer concerning God’s nature.

Even so, some believers will have a difficult time worshiping a God like the one depicted in Job.

They instead want to envision some grandfatherly God that would never impose His will upon His creation.

People who will not accept the God depicted in Job are like Job who was “justifying himself when he should have been justifying God” (Job 32:2)

Your focus is wrong. Of course God exercised His sovereignty to protect Job in the face of Satan’s incitements. But can you answer about God’s sovereignty over the other characters in the drama?

Were Job’s 3 friends’ completely under God’s control? How do you know from the passage?

How could Satan “incite” God to do anything if God was controlling Satan’s every thought?

 

[Van]

Van Said -In Ephesians 1:11 the predestined "inheritance" refers to our redemption, so once again, predestined to be saved is no where to be found.
Martin responded - The verse nowhere speaks of 'redemption,' though certainly that is in view. But do you believe that one can be redeemed and yet not be saved? The verse tells us that God predestines 'all things.' Do you suppose that salvation is somehow not included in 'all things'?

Here is an example of misrepresentation. Did Martin deny the "inheritance" in view is our bodily redemption (Romans 8:23)?
Did I say a person can be redeemed but not saved? Nope so deflection and misrepresentation on display.
Does the verse say or suggest God predestines "all things?" Nope.

Here is the actual verse (NASB):
Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

So the verse actually says:
1) as born anew believers in Christ, we have obtained an inheritance.
2) Our inheritance is our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming.
3) This future occurrence is according to God's purpose
4) God "works" (causes or allows) all things after (or according to) the counsel of His will.

So the Calvinist twists this verse and claims it says "God predestines all things."

 

[Van]

God must give you a new heart before you would ever believe and repent. If not, you have the wrong god.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

Note the claim we must have a new heart ignores Galatians 3:24 where those under sin a led to Christ without a new heart.
And of course the "circumcision of Christ" occurs after God puts us into Christ. Thus Deut. 30:6 is just another non-germane citation.

 

[1689Dave]

Note the claim we must have a new heart ignores Galatians 3:24 where those under sin a led to Christ without a new heart.
And of course the "circumcision of Christ" occurs after God puts us into Christ. Thus Deut. 30:6 is just another non-germane citation.

Dead spirits cannot discern spiritual truth, namely God. God must save a person by giving them a resurrected new heart before they can believe.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The point was that he was. Are you saying Job was not perfect in chapter 1, because of a verse in chapter 42?

I am saying that he was not perfect in the sense of being totally free from fault. The word in question is tam (Strongs 8535). It is applied to Jacob (who was certainly far from perfect) in Genesis 25:27 where it is usually translated 'mild.' It tends elsewhere to have the meaning of integrity or completeness.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 applies.

Addendum: I don't know Hebrew. What I have written above has come out of a Word Study Dictionary.
However, I do know some Greek and the Greek word teleios, which is also translated 'perfect in 1 Corinthians 13:10 and elsewhere, is rendered as 'men' or 'mature' in 1 Corinthians 14:20, and as 'complete' elsewhere. In secular Greek it can mean 'ripe.' An apple might be ripe and perfect for eating, yet have the odd spot on it that needs to be cut out.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Dead spirits cannot discern spiritual truth, namely God. God must save a person by giving them a resurrected new heart before they can believe.

Indeed. @Van confuses 'dead' with 'not very well.'
Long John Silver knew more theology than Van. He trained his parrot to say, "Dead men don't bite." And they don't. Nor do they speak, hear or believe.
Lazarus is dead. He's been in the tomb for four days. Now you can tell Lazarus that it's not a good thing to be dead, and explain the disadvantages to him. You can tell him how much better it is to be alive and how much more fun he would have, but he won't respond to you, and he certainly won't come to life. Why not? Because he's dead.
And it's even worse than that. Lazarus is a stinker (John 11:39). He's in a bad odour with God because he's dead in trespasses and sin. He has no right to come to life.
'But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)' (Ephesians 2:4-5). Do the dead raise themselves? Not at all! 'God.......made us alive.' When the Lord Jesus Christ says, "Lazarus, come forth!" Lazarus will come. When they hear the word of the Son of God, the dead will rise (John 5:25; 1 Corinthians 1:21).
And this is accomplished in our day by the preaching of the Gospel. 'And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord God, You know." Again He said to me, "Prophesy to the bones, and say to them, "O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!"' So do the dry bones come to life of their own accord when they hear the word? Not at all! 'Thus says the LORD God to te bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. then you shall know thyat I am the LORD"' (Ezekiel 37:3-6).

So does Galatians 3:24 contradict any of this? Not at all, and it is impossible that it should. All that verse says is that the preaching of the law brings people to faith. You look elsewhere to find that faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).

 

[Alan Gross]

This is an excellent example of circular reasoning

God is God, According to Who God Says God is, and not Who the mind of carnal men reasoning within a sin-cursed brain of Natural flesh, THINK God is.

 

[AustinC]

Yet another change the subject post. When we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit, then God works in us to will and do His good please.

But before we are placed and sealed in Christ, we are under sin, and are led to Christ by scripture, and the witnesses thereof. It is through the call of the gospel, we are drawn to Christ, as we behold Him high and lifted up, dying for our sin.

Are we placed and sealed in Christ by our own choice? Is God like an employee at the meat counter of our grocery store? He just takes our order?

 

[Alan Gross]

Your focus is wrong. Of course God exercised His sovereignty to protect Job in the face of Satan’s incitements. But can you answer about God’s sovereignty over the other characters in the drama?

Were Job’s 3 friends’ completely under God’s control? How do you know from the passage?

How could Satan “incite” God to do anything if God was controlling Satan’s every thought?

Implying the Teaching in the passage is not applicable to the rest of the passage is irrational.

So, my focus is rational.

 

[AustinC]

Implying the Teaching in the passage is not applicable to the rest of the passage is irrational.

So, my focus is rational.

So now God is silly for pointing out that Job was righteous in God's eyes?

How did you get that from my post.
God played Satan like a fiddle. God correctly stated that Job was blameless. God did not say Job was perfect. Had God said that, then God would have lied. Job 1 tells us that Job made sacrifices for his family in case they had sinned. Job was walking upright with God (blameless, not perfect).
God points out Job to Satan so that God can show Satan and all of us that the gift of faith brings with it... perseverance. God enables Job to persevere through this extreme trial precisely because God had given Job faith in the full Sovereignty of God.
Job is perhaps my favorite book in the Bible. It reveals to us the problem of pain and the response of the upright in the midst of pain.
I suggest you actually read the book from cover to cover in one sitting. It's fabulous.

 

[Derf B]

Implying the Teaching in the passage is not applicable to the rest of the passage is irrational.

So, my focus is rational.

Assuming your preconceptions are really what God meant to convey is irrational.

 

[timtofly]

Your focus is wrong. Of course God exercised His sovereignty to protect Job in the face of Satan’s incitements. But can you answer about God’s sovereignty over the other characters in the drama?

Were Job’s 3 friends’ completely under God’s control? How do you know from the passage?

How could Satan “incite” God to do anything if God was controlling Satan’s every thought?

Wait? What? Satan has no free will. BUT no free thoughts? What is your proof?

 

[timtofly]

Dead spirits cannot discern spiritual truth, namely God. God must save a person by giving them a resurrected new heart before they can believe.

Dead Spirits? Even demons believe and tremble, can you get a deader spirit than a demon? James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God: thou doest well: the devils also believe it, and tremble."