God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens.

[1689Dave]

On and on the false claims fly from Calvinism. The faith God credits as righteousness exists before being placed in Christ and indwelt. The faith that comes from indwelling is not the faith through which we are saved. Again and again, Calvinist pretend ignorance of the sequence of God's work in our lives.

Here's a challenge. Where do you see anything that would aspire towards God and righteousness? Or anything resembling free will? This is people without the new birth.

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

 

[timtofly]

Here's Paul's description of our dead human spirit before the new birth.
“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:18–21 (KJV 1900)

Here's his description of our spirit brought to life in the New Birth.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” Galatians 5:22–24 (KJV 1900)

Both are the Holy Spirit. Those verses do not mention our spirit once.

 

[1689Dave]

Both are the Holy Spirit. Those verses do not mention our spirit once.

The wicked flesh described by Paul is the Holy Spirit?

 

[timtofly]

The issue with calvernism is that it takes a passage which sees God doing something in a particular way and extrapolates that to mean God does all things this way . Planning the crucifixion ( which by the way is the most wonderful thing to have happened not the most evil act that happened) akin to the conversation I had at the supermarket last week .

Disobeying God is worse than sin. Moses did that and got left in the Wilderness. Sin is a result. How many results happen in the mind? Disobedience starts in the thoughts and intents of the heart, way before it is acted upon, and way before sin is the result.

 

[Van]

Here's a challenge. Where do you see anything that would aspire towards God and righteousness? Or anything resembling free will? This is people without the new birth.

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

We can never find common ground, Sir, because rather than agree, the subject is always changed to a new bogus view.
Now to what does "the works of the flesh" refer. Calvinists wrongly claim is all that unregenerate people can do because they are men of flesh. People who actually study scripture think the fleshly desires are in view, so if a person sets their mind on the flesh, this is the result, but that same person can set their mind on spiritual things. And if we went through the verses that demonstrate this truth, the subject would be changed again with no agreement as to what scripture teaches.

 

[timtofly]

The wicked flesh described by Paul is the Holy Spirit?

No the first Spirit leads us "from". You cannot get rid of sin on your own, only God can. His Spirit, the Holy Spirit. Read it again. The works of the flesh is what the Holy Spirit prevents even without the law. The law just says, "You are a sinner." It is our flesh, not our spirit that is in sin. If your spirit is in sin, it is a demon.

 

[MB]

I would say God is in control and allows things to happen being in control . like a good chess player doesn't need to play both sides of the board to win .

True but this is not complete control. Complete control would mean we are forced in to a position where we could not resist. which IMO is false. Love cannot exist with out the freedom to do so willfully. God desires our Love
MB

 

[1689Dave]

No the first Spirit leads us "from". You cannot get rid of sin on your own, only God can. His Spirit, the Holy Spirit. Read it again. The works of the flesh is what the Holy Spirit prevents even without the law. The law just says, "You are a sinner." It is our flesh, not our spirit that is in sin. If your spirit is in sin, it is a demon.

How does the flesh want anything to do with the true God instead of idols? Notice it loves idols and sin.

 

[MB]

How does the flesh want anything to do with the true God instead of idols? Notice it loves idols and sin.

Conviction is the only answer. Conviction is that which catches the man off guard. Conviction gives the man a look at his pitiful life and how it's going. Conviction makes man sorrowful for his sins. Conviction shows man how he can change his path to an enlightened way of life. Conviction shows the man the way of Christ through the scriptures.. Conviction is very necessary for Salvation. It's what brings men to Christ. Conviction is the drawing.
MB

 

[timtofly]

How does the flesh want anything to do with the true God instead of idols? Notice it loves idols and sin.

The Holy Spirit. You say that is your own spirit in those verses. It is the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe those verses?

 

[MartyF]

Then, that has something to do with metaphysics(?)

No, I specifically said Job is not about metaphysics.

Job is not about your metaphysics.

"God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens."

The title of your thread is metaphysics. Like the three friends, you are limiting God and demanding that he acts in a certain way. For the three friends, God had to obey their rules concerning justice. For you, God has to control absolutely everything, including your bowel movements. You are pigeon-holing God just like the three friends did.

If God wants to control your bowel-movements, he can. If he doesn't want to control them, he can do that as well. He can let you decide when you are going to have a bowel movement. He doesn't have to do anything.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It's not a bet.

It's presented in the text as a bet.
I get that Calvinists don't give a damn about Scripture, but it is presented as a wager or bet.

God is goading Satan so that God can show Satan that God is Sovereign.

Satan knows that...
He isn't stupid.
Only the stupid think that the Satan is unaware of God's Sovereignty.

God knows Job, as He knows everyone. He knows that the faith He gave Job will persevere against all that Satan could do.

Great, so, Job is a meaningless puppet who merely reacts to whatever strings are pulled on him.
He's a marionette.
We've always known that Calvinism ultimately renders persons mere marionettes, but, good of you to admit it.

In essence, God is mocking Satan and Satan falls right into God's trap.

There was no trap.
The Satan knew his role.

I suggest the teaching series by Derek Thomas in Ligonier.

I don't

It's free at the moment and worth the listen.

It's free because no real scholars would pay for it.

 

[MartyF]

God must give you a new heart before you would ever believe and repent. If not, you have the wrong god.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

Did you bother to read that chapter? The people repent before a new heart is given to them.

 

[Salty]

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