God is in control but not all events are predetermined.

[whatever]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
Sorry, but you have no premise to begin with if you refuse to define between free actions and determinism and it is not me that wants to go into circles disregarding the logic it takes to have this discussion in a rational way.

Who took Job's camels?

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Benjamin:
Sorry, but you have no premise to begin with if you refuse to define between free actions and determinism and it is not me that wants to go into circles disregarding the logic it takes to have this discussion in a rational way.

Who took Job's camels? </font>[/QUOTE]Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by webdog:
Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Did the Chaldeans freely take Job's camels?

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Job 1:17 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Did the Chaldeans freely take Job's camels? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know if it was done "freely", since in doing so they would be sinning, and would have to answer to God for it. All sin comes with a price.

If what you are insinuating is that God authorized them to steal the camels, I would haved to agree that God allowed them to, since He allowed satan to test Job, satan would be the influence on the Chaldeans.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by webdog:
I don't know if it was done "freely", since in doing so they would be sinning, and would have to answer to God for it. All sin comes with a price.

If what you are insinuating is that God authorized them to steal the camels, I would haved to agree that God allowed them to, since He allowed satan to test Job, satan would be the influence on the Chaldeans.

Now don't go changing the meaning of "free" on me. I mean "free" as in "free will", as in they were doing what they chose to do.

Let's not insinuate. I am saying three things:

1. According to verse 1:12 God gave all that Job had into Satan's hand, so Satan took Job's camels.

2. According to verse 1:17 the Chaldeans wanted Job's camels so they decided to take them.

3. According to Job in verse 1:21 God took Job's camels and verse 1:22 confirms this fact.

So we have Scriptural proof that the free actions of man (and Satan) can be determined by God.

For another example, who killed Jesus? (see Acts 4:27-28)

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by doulous:
Mmmm....really tough question, "Is God the author of sin?" This question is the 3rd rail of Christianity. Some texts to consider:

John 1:3 3 All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created by Him and for Him.

I suppose we need to ask a question: "Is there anything, spiritual or physical, that God did not create?" If God did not create all things (and going forward this will include the spiritual and all things physical), what are the ramifications of that belief?

The passage in John clearly states that all things that have come into being have been created by Him (Christ). I suppose one could argue what is included in the word being. Paul seems to expound on John's claim when he writes,"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible..." Paul reveals plainly what John alludes to. All things were created by Christ. This includes heavenly things and earthly things. And just so the reader is not confused Paul drills down to the micro by telling us "visibile and invisible." Paul is revealing Christ's creative powers of both the material world that we see around us and the spiritual world, which would include the angelic realm. Up to this point I'm sure most of us would pretty much agree. But we're still left with the question, "Did God create sin?"

If the only proof that is sufficient is a verse that says, "God created ain" then the answer would be no, God did not create sin. But that is not intellectually honest to the text. The bible doesn't say there is a trinity but we hold it as an essential truth of orthodoxy. We do know, from the two texts shared in this post, that God created all things...physical and spiritual.

One of the assumptions made is that if God created sin then sin must be present in God. Put another way, sin is part of God's character. Perish the thought! The bible tells us that God is holy (Lev. 11:44; 1 Pet. 1:16). Could God be holy if part of His character was sinful? No. But does this mean that God did not create sin? Could God have created sin as a means of proclaiming His glory and His holiness while not being sinful in His nature? Once again, a 3rd rail question.

One of the proof-texts that has been used to support the assumption that God did not create sin is found in the first chapter of James. James 1:13 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. If we take the verse at face value, all it says is that God cannot be tempted by evil and that He does not tempt others. It does not answer the question of whether God created sin (evil)*.

I am going to attempt to answer a question that I asked earlier. If God did not create all things, what are the ramifications of that belief? And for the sake of the discussion I will include sin in "all things." If God did not create all things then we are left to conclude that someone else has creative powers. If someone else has creative powers then God is not omnipotent or omniscient. We cannot attribute creative powers to Satan. He was created himself. Satan certainly has powers...angelic powers that far exceed mortal man. But Satan's powers are limited. There is no record in scripture of Satan ever creating anything ex nihilo (out of nothing). Sin just didn't happen. It did not pop out of thin air. Someone had to create sin. Some have said, "Sin was created by the first act of disobedience. It is the opposite of holiness and righteousness." Agreed. Sin is the opposite of holiness and righteousness. But sin is not an abstract concept. Sin is reality. It is a spiritual force that separates us from God.

This is enough for now. I am sure this will give us plenty to discuss. One question we will have to wrestle with is, "If God did create sin, why did He create it?"

*I have used "evil" and "sin" interchangeably in this post

Hello doulous and welcome to the board.

I look at God being omniscient and self derived as knowing that evil would exist in the truth of nature as He made it in order for good to exist.

Some of what we know about His nature from the Word is that He is Love, Truth, and also that He hates evil. So why would He create something that He hates and is against His nature?

When an all-loving and only good God created the world it was for the good; if there was Adam all by himself and nothing to compare against him; a world with a population of one how could it logically be good without a comparison.

I think about God creating the world and saying in was good. He also said it was not good that man should be alone and He created BOTH male and female. He placed the tree of knowledge in the garden and said do not eat of it but I’m sure being omniscient knew with the circumstances He created what the result would be. This is where free will comes in for me; did He create man to be both good and evil or did He create man as good but allowed evil to exist knowing within the circumstances of Truth as He created His creatures that evil would exist in order for man to be made in His likeness being blessed with a free spirit to choose between good and evil.

He knew of coarse that man would fall with the knowledge of good and evil because WHO can compare himself against God who is the Only all Good, again referring back to the logic of good existing without a comparison of evil. To be in God’s kingdom we must be in His Spirit and that is why I think He planned before the foundation of the world with the grace of His love to give His only Son that we could come to be with Him in the spirit of perfection and gave us a choice within our freedom as He created us to be with Him.

So in a nutshell I think He allowed evil to exist as a truth in the nature that He created to provide for a world with a population of more than one creature with a spirit. I do not think God was the author of sin but allowed it for His purposes and pleasure to create a world with creatures in His likeness and I’m glad he did considering the alternative. </font>[/QUOTE]Ben, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Your post centered around your opinion of God creating/not creating sin. Certainly opinion is part of exegesis. We pray that our opinion is actually faithful interpretation of the text. Is this something you have exegeted or is it mostly opinion? That is not a confrontational question, but in order to be fair to others in the thread I believe it is helpful if we separate solid exegesis from well thought out opinion.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by doulous:

Ben, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Your post centered around your opinion of God creating/not creating sin. Certainly opinion is part of exegesis. We pray that our opinion is actually faithful interpretation of the text. Is this something you have exegeted or is it mostly opinion? That is not a confrontational question, but in order to be fair to others in the thread I believe it is helpful if we separate solid exegesis from well thought out opinion.

Always anxious to share some thoughts and maybe learn something new. In addressing God creating/not creating sin first I will say it is beyond our finite comprehension and leads us to a faithful opinion from the exegesis in scripture with regards to comparing scripture to scripture and gets us into the age old questions of the POE (Problem of Evil) The existence of evil from an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God. Taking these 3 omni’s into consideration I first addressed His character or nature of God from scripture.

God is Love (1John 4:8), Truth (John 4:24) hates evil, His work and ways are perfect.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Without iniquity:
H5766
עלה עולה עולה עול עול
‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh
eh'-vel, aw'-vel, av-law', o-law', o-law'
From H5765; (moral) evil: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

In light of this scripture and others for a doctrine to suggest that God is responsible for sin and some of His creatures were designed to be limited from righteousness is not "intellectually honest to the text" or taking the whole of scripture into consideration but of an opinion designed to fit an agenda of man’s belief.

In your opinion:

If God did not create all things then we are left to conclude that someone else has creative powers.

I would point to the question, Why, would an omnipotent God whose work is perfect “create” sin and could it not exist as a truth in the nature of the world as He created it in the good.

(Gen 1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Everything God had made was not only good but "very good" so when did He create evil?

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by doulous:

Ben, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Your post centered around your opinion of God creating/not creating sin. Certainly opinion is part of exegesis. We pray that our opinion is actually faithful interpretation of the text. Is this something you have exegeted or is it mostly opinion? That is not a confrontational question, but in order to be fair to others in the thread I believe it is helpful if we separate solid exegesis from well thought out opinion.

Always anxious to share some thoughts and maybe learn something new. In addressing God creating/not creating sin first I will say it is beyond our finite comprehension and leads us to a faithful opinion from the exegesis in scripture with regards to comparing scripture to scripture and gets us into the age old questions of the POE (Problem of Evil) The existence of evil from an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God. Taking these 3 omni’s into consideration I first addressed His character or nature of God from scripture.

God is Love (1John 4:8), Truth (John 4:24) hates evil, His work and ways are perfect.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Without iniquity:
H5766
עלה עולה עולה עול עול
‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh
eh'-vel, aw'-vel, av-law', o-law', o-law'
From H5765; (moral) evil: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

In light of this scripture and others for a doctrine to suggest that God is responsible for sin and some of His creatures were designed to be limited from righteousness is not "intellectually honest to the text" or taking the whole of scripture into consideration but of an opinion designed to fit an agenda of man’s belief.

In your opinion:

If God did not create all things then we are left to conclude that someone else has creative powers.

I would point to the question, Why, would an omnipotent God whose work is perfect “create” sin and could it not exist as a truth in the nature of the world as He created it in the good.

(Gen 1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Everything God had made was not only good but "very good" so when did He create evil? </font>[/QUOTE]Ben, I don't suppose to have the final word on this. Theologians have been battling with this topic for centuries. I am trying to understand it myself. I quoted a passage in my previous post (Col. 1:16) that God created all things (spiritual and physical). My reason for using that passage was to establish the fact that anything created is by God and no one else.

Here is where I stand on the issue. God created all things. God cannot sin and no sin is found in Him (that is, part of His nature). God not only created all things, He wills all things by His primary or secondary decree.* Sin was created by God in the abstract. When Lucifer sinned the abstract became a reality. Lucifer became the sinner and freely chose to sin. This is the same for Adam. Adam was a moral free agent. He was created without sin but had the ability to sin. He chose, of His own free will, to sin. Once again the abstract became reality. Although Adam had free will, his sin was a result of God's secondary decree (which I will define at the end of this post). Since sin has passed on to all men because of Adam (1 Cor. 15:22), we no longer have the same capability of Adam (the ability not to sin). But I digress. This is not a post about total depravity.

Summary? God created sin in the abstract. Man (and Lucifer) willingly chose to sin and therefore brought in the reality of the trespass.

*God's "primary" will of decree are those things that God decrees and implements directly. God's "secondary" will of decree are those things that God desires to happen but through the actions of others.

 

[Benjamin]

Ben, I don't suppose to have the final word on this. Theologians have been battling with this topic for centuries. I am trying to understand it myself. I quoted a passage in my previous post (Col. 1:16) that God created all things (spiritual and physical). My reason for using that passage was to establish the fact that anything created is by God and no one else.

Doulous,

I don’t suppose to have the final word either and I think we agree then that no one can explain how evil exist. Seems we differ in the belief whether God created evil or if it exist because of the truth of nature in His creation. I think we also would agree that our omniscient God knew evil would exist and in this we may differ on whether He made it to exist or allowed it to exist. Personally, I think God being a God of Truth allowed it to exist as a truth in the very nature that He being self derived made for Himself to be true and with that when He created creatures for His pleasure and although He was only Good his creatures that He made with a spirit were not capable to be only good because there is only one God. Herein my logic centers on a world with a population of one has nothing to compare itself to, but when God blessed man with a spirit in His own image and likeness there becomes a comparison and man cannot compare himself to God so man is going to fall short and be evil and that is a trespass against God’s sovereign nature.

Now with all that, how can we be with Him in His perfect Kingdom if we are evil? My answer is we can’t and He knew this is why before the foundation of the world so He gave of Himself in His great love for His creatures and by His Grace not that we deserved it but because of His great love for us that we could be with Him in His Kingdom through His own Spirit.

Believing God’s nature to be only Love and Truth I find in unconscionable some would think that He would predetermine that any of His creatures would have no choice but to love evil. I think He blessed us with a free will in our spirit and draws us to Him through the HS blessing us with faith for the love of good over evil beginning with the message of the Gospel that He provided for us to know the Truth in the knowledge that He knew we would have when He created us in His likeness with a free spirit.

Love that is forced is not love, and is not the truth in the nature of love, Blessed are they that hunger and thirst, for they shall be filled, comes from free love and provides for creatures with a free spirit. To limit the water that God gives to His creatures that thirst is to limit God’s love. Okay, I’m rambling and this could go on forever but I will close saying God is in control within the truth of His Own self derived true nature and He knows our hearts and He gives love to us freely and in may ways He intervenes in our lives to draw us to Him showing us His awesome power but NEVER as it would be against the truth of nature in His creatures that He made knowing they would have knowledge by their free spirit would He force us to choose the Good that He is or the evil that He is not. I think it a lie of evil against His nature in which He allows men to act freely to say “everything is predetermined”.

Here is where I stand on the issue. God created all things. God cannot sin and no sin is found in Him (that is, part of His nature). God not only created all things, He wills all things by His primary or secondary decree.* Sin was created by God in the abstract. When Lucifer sinned the abstract became a reality. Lucifer became the sinner and freely chose to sin. This is the same for Adam. Adam was a moral free agent. He was created without sin but had the ability to sin. He chose, of His own free will, to sin. Once again the abstract became reality. Although Adam had free will, his sin was a result of God's secondary decree (which I will define at the end of this post). Since sin has passed on to all men because of Adam (1 Cor. 15:22), we no longer have the same capability of Adam (the ability not to sin). But I digress. This is not a post about total depravity.

What you are defining as the secondary decree seems to hinge on Adam having the capability not to sin; I don’t think this is true, never was. God is omniscient and knew Adam would sin as shown in His plan of redemption from before the foundation of the world, which is a truth factor of His creation. Creatures with a free spirit will choose knowledge and creatures with that knowledge will fall short in comparison to God thereby trespassing against God in the world as He created it in truth.

Back up one verse (1Cor 15:21) and it says, “For since by man came death,” This is not a separation between Adam and man but inclusive referring to the truth that in all God’s creation of creatures having a free spirit they would fall short of God with the circumstances of freedom they were given. In the next verse 1Cor 15:22 “For as in Adam all die,” confirms just like Adam in which this is an explanation that exactly like Adam the whole of His creation will die, even so we the whole of His creation, in Christ, being in His Spirit, shall be made alive. This promise is to us His creatures from the Good and includes all of His created creatures. Why the need to start to separate Adam from the whole of His creatures if not to fit the doctrine of limitations.

Summary? God created sin in the abstract. Man (and Lucifer) willingly chose to sin and therefore brought in the reality of the trespass.

*God's "primary" will of decree are those things that God decrees and implements directly. God's "secondary" will of decree are those things that God desires to happen but through the actions of others.

In my summary, we would probably have to agree or agree to disagree to leave evil in the abstract concerning creation/not created. And I would take exception in the secondary that God’s unchanging will in the primary was to create creatures in His own likeness with a free spirit along with knowledge of good and evil and His desire is complete in that aspect. I think in the secondary you will attempt to separate His will.

Sorry about the rambling and long post. It’s probably a good thing I haven’t learned to type with all my fingers yet.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by epistemaniac:
Eph 1:11 esv In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

all things... unless you want to say that "all" doesn't mean "all"

blessings,
Ken

Sorry, but I am not going to debate every proof text or the meaning of “all” throughout scripture, in this case I have already have agreed that God is in control of all things according to His will. Where I take issue is what His purpose and will consist of and the limitation of His sovereignty to not include free will and holding Him responsible for sin by your doctrine. So, do you agree with the following formula or not?

According to Calvinist doctrine for God to be sovereign He must have predestined everything, true?

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

… then one must agree that God is responsible for all happenings regardless of the origin being good or evil.

Does God hold men responsible for sin when they do not have the volition to change the circumstances? If so, is God the author of sin? </font>[/QUOTE]Look, in some sense God is "responsible for sin" whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist. This is because all Christians everywhere have always maintained that

God has absolutely perfect foreknowledge of the future.
God is omnipotent and could stop any sin He wanted to stop
But God does not in fact stop all sin
Therefore, in some sense, He wills or allows sin to occur

blessings,
Ken

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by epistemaniac
Look, in some sense God is "responsible for sin" whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist.

In a sense by creating “us” God allowed sin but the buck stops there. If God is responsible for the sins of His creatures consider the alternative, NO EPISTEMANIAC !

If you as a perspective father knew that by having a child with the freedoms to have knowledge of good and evil that the child would sin does that make you responsible for his sin? Anyway, God paid the price so that we could be perfect didn’t He?

Biblically God is only good, without moral evil and His work is perfect Deut 32:4 and He made the world and said it was very good Gen 1:31, but to fit some doctrines of those spoiled little children they end up needing to make Him out a liar.

This is because all Christians everywhere have always maintained that

All???

God has absolutely perfect foreknowledge of the future.

And we know what “perfect foreknowledge” consists of?

God is omnipotent and could stop any sin He wanted to stop

Even if it was against the truth as He created it that we have free will?

But God does not in fact stop all sin

Wonder why since He’s omnipotent and hates evil.

Therefore, in some sense, He wills or allows sin to occur

In some sense? Then how does sin come from an omnibenevolent God?

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

 

[doulous]

In my summary, we would probably have to agree or agree to disagree

Ben,

Yep. We're going to have to agree to disagree, although it is a subject I will continue to revisit personally.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by doulous:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />In my summary, we would probably have to agree or agree to disagree

Ben,

Yep. We're going to have to agree to disagree, although it is a subject I will continue to revisit personally. </font>[/QUOTE]doulous,

I pray God will bless you in your re-visitation.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by epistemaniac
Look, in some sense God is "responsible for sin" whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist.

In a sense by creating “us” God allowed sin but the buck stops there. If God is responsible for the sins of His creatures consider the alternative, NO EPISTEMANIAC !

If you as a perspective father knew that by having a child with the freedoms to have knowledge of good and evil that the child would sin does that make you responsible for his sin? Anyway, God paid the price so that we could be perfect didn’t He?

Biblically God is only good, without moral evil and His work is perfect Deut 32:4 and He made the world and said it was very good Gen 1:31, but to fit some doctrines of those spoiled little children they end up needing to make Him out a liar.

This is because all Christians everywhere have always maintained that

All???

God has absolutely perfect foreknowledge of the future.

And we know what “perfect foreknowledge” consists of?

God is omnipotent and could stop any sin He wanted to stop

Even if it was against the truth as He created it that we have free will?

But God does not in fact stop all sin

Wonder why since He’s omnipotent and hates evil.

Therefore, in some sense, He wills or allows sin to occur

In some sense? Then how does sin come from an omnibenevolent God?

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. </font>[/QUOTE]yep.. the only people who have denied God's absolute exhaustive foreknowledge are heretics like the Socinians and Open Theists....

the analogy of the human father does not work, while the human father may think that the possibility of sin is high, God knows all that will happen, He knows every single individual that has ever been born and what they will do...this He knows about sin before it occurs, He knows exactly what that sin will be... in fact, we see this most and best described in Jesus' crucifixion...
Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
(28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

God can and does intervene in such a way as to override human will whenever He sees fit, to accomplish His ultimate ends....

He uses the sins of Joseph's brothers to accomplish His will,
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God plainly uses evil for His own purposes,
man's will is directed by God whenever and for whoever He desires,
Jos 11:20 esv For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

take a lesson from Nebuchadnezzar...
Dan 4:31-37 esv While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,
(32) and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
(33) Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.
(34) At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
(35) all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
(36) At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me.
(37) Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.


or the Pharaoh...
Exo 4:21 esv And the Lord said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go....
Exo 7:3 esv But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo 7:22 esv But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Exo 9:12 esv But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exo 14:4 esv And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exo 14:17-18 esv And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
(18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

The Pharaoh's hardened heart resulted in sin, God did not sin by hardening his heart, but God used the sin that resulted from the hardened heart to accomplish His greater ends....

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by epistemaniac
Look, in some sense God is "responsible for sin" whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist.

In a sense by creating “us” God allowed sin but the buck stops there. If God is responsible for the sins of His creatures consider the alternative, NO EPISTEMANIAC !

If you as a perspective father knew that by having a child with the freedoms to have knowledge of good and evil that the child would sin does that make you responsible for his sin? Anyway, God paid the price so that we could be perfect didn’t He?

Biblically God is only good, without moral evil and His work is perfect Deut 32:4 and He made the world and said it was very good Gen 1:31, but to fit some doctrines of those spoiled little children they end up needing to make Him out a liar.

This is because all Christians everywhere have always maintained that

All???

God has absolutely perfect foreknowledge of the future.

And we know what “perfect foreknowledge” consists of?

God is omnipotent and could stop any sin He wanted to stop

Even if it was against the truth as He created it that we have free will?

But God does not in fact stop all sin

Wonder why since He’s omnipotent and hates evil.

Therefore, in some sense, He wills or allows sin to occur

In some sense? Then how does sin come from an omnibenevolent God?

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. </font>[/QUOTE]yep.. the only people who have denied God's absolute exhaustive foreknowledge are heretics like the Socinians and Open Theists....

the analogy of the human father does not work, while the human father may think that the possibility of sin is high, God knows all that will happen, He knows every single individual that has ever been born and what they will do...this He knows about sin before it occurs, He knows exactly what that sin will be... in fact, we see this most and best described in Jesus' crucifixion...
Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
(28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

God can and does intervene in such a way as to override human will whenever He sees fit, to accomplish His ultimate ends....

He uses the sins of Joseph's brothers to accomplish His will,
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God plainly uses evil for His own purposes,
man's will is directed by God whenever and for whoever He desires,
Jos 11:20 esv For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

take a lesson from Nebuchadnezzar...
Dan 4:31-37 esv While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,
(32) and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
(33) Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.
(34) At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
(35) all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
(36) At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me.
(37) Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.


or the Pharaoh...
Exo 4:21 esv And the Lord said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go....
Exo 7:3 esv But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo 7:22 esv But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Exo 9:12 esv But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exo 14:4 esv And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exo 14:17-18 esv And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
(18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

The Pharaoh's hardened heart resulted in sin, God did not sin by hardening his heart, but God used the sin that resulted from the hardened heart to accomplish His greater ends....

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by epistemaniac
Look, in some sense God is "responsible for sin" whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist.

In a sense by creating “us” God allowed sin but the buck stops there. If God is responsible for the sins of His creatures consider the alternative, NO EPISTEMANIAC !

If you as a perspective father knew that by having a child with the freedoms to have knowledge of good and evil that the child would sin does that make you responsible for his sin? Anyway, God paid the price so that we could be perfect didn’t He?

Biblically God is only good, without moral evil and His work is perfect Deut 32:4 and He made the world and said it was very good Gen 1:31, but to fit some doctrines of those spoiled little children they end up needing to make Him out a liar.

This is because all Christians everywhere have always maintained that

All???

God has absolutely perfect foreknowledge of the future.

And we know what “perfect foreknowledge” consists of?

God is omnipotent and could stop any sin He wanted to stop

Even if it was against the truth as He created it that we have free will?

But God does not in fact stop all sin

Wonder why since He’s omnipotent and hates evil.

Therefore, in some sense, He wills or allows sin to occur

In some sense? Then how does sin come from an omnibenevolent God?

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. </font>[/QUOTE]yep.. the only people who have denied God's absolute exhaustive foreknowledge are heretics like the Socinians and Open Theists....

the analogy of the human father does not work, while the human father may think that the possibility of sin is high, God knows all that will happen, He knows every single individual that has ever been born and what they will do...this He knows about sin before it occurs, He knows exactly what that sin will be... in fact, we see this most and best described in Jesus' crucifixion...
Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
(28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

God can and does intervene in such a way as to override human will whenever He sees fit, to accomplish His ultimate ends....

He uses the sins of Joseph's brothers to accomplish His will,
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God plainly uses evil for His own purposes,
man's will is directed by God whenever and for whoever He desires,
Jos 11:20 esv For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

take a lesson from Nebuchadnezzar...
Dan 4:31-37 esv While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,
(32) and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
(33) Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.
(34) At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
(35) all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
(36) At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me.
(37) Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.


or the Pharaoh...
Exo 4:21 esv And the Lord said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go....
Exo 7:3 esv But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo 7:22 esv But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Exo 9:12 esv But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exo 14:4 esv And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exo 14:17-18 esv And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
(18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

The Pharaoh's hardened heart resulted in sin, God did not sin by hardening his heart, but God used the sin that resulted from the hardened heart to accomplish His greater ends....

blessings,
Ken

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by epistemaniac
Look, in some sense God is "responsible for sin" whether you are an Arminian or a Calvinist.

In a sense by creating “us” God allowed sin but the buck stops there. If God is responsible for the sins of His creatures consider the alternative, NO EPISTEMANIAC !

If you as a perspective father knew that by having a child with the freedoms to have knowledge of good and evil that the child would sin does that make you responsible for his sin? Anyway, God paid the price so that we could be perfect didn’t He?

Biblically God is only good, without moral evil and His work is perfect Deut 32:4 and He made the world and said it was very good Gen 1:31, but to fit some doctrines of those spoiled little children they end up needing to make Him out a liar.

This is because all Christians everywhere have always maintained that

All???

God has absolutely perfect foreknowledge of the future.

And we know what “perfect foreknowledge” consists of?

God is omnipotent and could stop any sin He wanted to stop

Even if it was against the truth as He created it that we have free will?

But God does not in fact stop all sin

Wonder why since He’s omnipotent and hates evil.

Therefore, in some sense, He wills or allows sin to occur

In some sense? Then how does sin come from an omnibenevolent God?

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. </font>[/QUOTE]yep.. the only people who have denied God's absolute exhaustive foreknowledge are heretics like the Socinians and Open Theists....

the analogy of the human father does not work, while the human father may think that the possibility of sin is high, God knows all that will happen, He knows every single individual that has ever been born and what they will do...this He knows about sin before it occurs, He knows exactly what that sin will be... in fact, we see this most and best described in Jesus' crucifixion...
Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
(28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

God can and does intervene in such a way as to override human will whenever He sees fit, to accomplish His ultimate ends....

He uses the sins of Joseph's brothers to accomplish His will,
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God plainly uses evil for His own purposes,
man's will is directed by God whenever and for whoever He desires,
Jos 11:20 esv For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

take a lesson from Nebuchadnezzar...
Dan 4:31-37 esv While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,
(32) and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
(33) Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.
(34) At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
(35) all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
(36) At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me.
(37) Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.


or the Pharaoh...
Exo 4:21 esv And the Lord said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go....
Exo 7:3 esv But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo 7:22 esv But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Exo 9:12 esv But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exo 14:4 esv And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exo 14:17-18 esv And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
(18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

The Pharaoh's hardened heart resulted in sin, God did not sin by hardening his heart, but God used the sin that resulted from the hardened heart to accomplish His greater ends....

blessings,
Ken

 

[Benjamin]

yep.. the only people who have denied God's absolute exhaustive foreknowledge are heretics like the Socinians and Open Theists....

Well, I’m not denying God’s foreknowledge if that’s what you’re insinuating; I’ve suggested He might have more absolute exhaustive foreknowledge than even you can understand; not liking that idea? You might be thinking higher of yourself that you ought. God’s ways are not your ways.

the analogy of the human father does not work, while the human father may think that the possibility of sin is high, God knows all that will happen, He knows every single individual that has ever been born and what they will do...this He knows about sin before it occurs, He knows exactly what that sin will be... in fact, we see this most and best described in Jesus' crucifixion...
Act 4:26-28 esv The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed (27) for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
(28) to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Okay let’s stay away from analogies of human fathers and consider God. Amazing how God can create a circumstance in advance knowing all along how it will come down and still allow His creatures free will isn’t it? Only heretical doctrines limit God’s absolute omnipotence.

God can and does intervene in such a way as to override human will whenever He sees fit, to accomplish His ultimate ends....

And He intervenes by “overriding” human will? You say He “can”… “whenever He sees fit” Guess He changed His mind then, huh? Here comes the doctrine of “changing His mind”, I thought you said only heretics like Socinians and Open Theists denied absolute exhaustive foreknowledge, didn’t He get it right in the first place?

He uses the sins of Joseph's brothers to accomplish His will,
Gen 50:20 esv As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God plainly uses evil for His own purposes,

You deny scripture that says, As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good , plainly God used it for the good and it was good unless you want to deny His foreknowledge again (that is His nature BTW…Good that is) and YOUR opinion that God uses evil for his own purposes also denies scripture…

(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

…you should be careful of your words saying God uses evil:

(1Jo 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

man's will is directed by God whenever and for whoever He desires,
Jos 11:20 esv For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

I have no problem with “directed” if it doesn’t mean “fixed and forced” and don’t attempt to limit by doctrine His desires…like some people we know!

And how did the Lord do it? God hardened their hearts by creating them with free will and allowing them by the circumstances He made for the good to do exactly what His creatures would do, foreknowing all along what would happen, reason? That they should be “devoted” still sounds within the realm of free will, not fixed, not forced, but yet known by God …amazing how He can do that isn’t it? A paradox my friend, but true none the less.

take a lesson from Nebuchadnezzar...
Dan 4:31-37 esv While the words were still in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, O King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: The kingdom has departed from you,
(32) and you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. And you shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.
(33) Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.
(34) At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
(35) all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, What have you done?
(36) At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me.
(37) Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.


or the Pharaoh...
Exo 4:21 esv And the Lord said to Moses, When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go....
Exo 7:3 esv But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
Exo 7:22 esv But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts. So Pharaoh's heart remained hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Exo 9:12 esv But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
Exo 14:4 esv And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exo 14:17-18 esv And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.
(18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

The Pharaoh's hardened heart resulted in sin, God did not sin by hardening his heart, but God used the sin that resulted from the hardened heart to accomplish His greater ends....

I think you might have this part right, “God did not sin by hardening his heart, but God used the sin that resulted from the hardened heart to accomplish His greater ends....” and He did it all being omnibenevolent and without changing His mind that His creatures would be made in His image and likeness and have a spirit with free will and knowledge of good and evil just as He desired while accomplishing His greater end. This was an amazing lesson, thank you.

Although, I don’t have time to go through all the proof texts arrangements to support your entire doctrine; How do you suggest God provides for free will if “everything is predetermined”?

 

[Me4Him]

God never does anything without a purpose, so the question should be,

What was the purpose of allowing evil to exist in the first place, if God isn't willing for any to perish???

 

[doulous]

To glorify Himself.