God is in control but not all events are predetermined.

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Revelation, chapter 2

"5": Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

"6": But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Where is the Glory? Does He receive Glory from Satan?

You want glory in the context of God's judgment? Here goes:


Glory while girding on His sword in judgment

Psalm 45:3-5 Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. 4 And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. 5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; The peoples fall under You.


Glory while the day of the Lord of hosts comes to humble men in judgment

Isaiah 2:10-12 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up -- And it shall be brought low --


Glory while shaking the earth in terror

Isaiah 2:19-21 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily. 20 In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver And his idols of gold, Which they made, each for himself to worship, To the moles and bats, 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, And into the crags of the rugged rocks, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.


Glory while kindling a burning like a fire

Isaiah 10:16 Therefore the Lord, the Lord of hosts, Will send leanness among his fat ones; And under his glory He will kindle a burning Like the burning of a fire.


Glory while punishing those who oppressed His people

Isaiah 41:11-16 Behold, all those who were incensed against you Shall be ashamed and disgraced; They shall be as nothing, And those who strive with you shall perish. 12 You shall seek them and not find them -- Those who contended with you. Those who war against you Shall be as nothing, As a nonexistent thing. 13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand, Saying to you, 'Fear not, I will help you.' 14 " Fear not, you worm Jacob, You men of Israel! I will help you," says the LORD And your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. 15 "Behold, I will make you into a new threshing sledge with sharp teeth; You shall thresh the mountains and beat them small, And make the hills like chaff. 16 You shall winnow them, the wind shall carry them away, And the whirlwind shall scatter them; You shall rejoice in the LORD, And glory in the Holy One of Israel.


Glory while repaying His enemies and causing others to fear Him

Isaiah 59:18-19 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. 19 So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.


Glory when Christ returns in judgment on those who rejected Him

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


Glory as a result of the seven bowl judgments of Revelation

Revelation 15:7-8 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.


Glory given to God by those in heaven because of His righteous judgment of the great harlot

Revelation 19:1-3 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"


I mean, really, the word glory is used 379 times in the Bible. Surely, before you tried to make a point about God not getting glory from judgment, you would have done a word search? I guess not.

Yes, God receives glory from those whom He has redeemed AND He receives glory from the righteous judgment of those who refused His mercy.

 

[Brother Bob]

So He wants me to "love my enemies" while He rejoices in their demise. really? To give the Lord Glory and for Him to glory is two different things. Come on!!! the Scriptures you used don't say God is glorying in destruction of man.

BTW you used 179 words in bold and I used 14.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Revelation, chapter 2

"5": Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

"6": But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Where is the Glory? Does He receive Glory from Satan?

Brother Bob, the glory is found in God's jealousy for His holiness. God will not share His glory with another. Remember the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal? God's glory was seen in His destruction of these idolators.

 

[Brother Bob]

Give me a verse and chapter and let me look at the context please doulous for all I have read is that God glory was seen but not because of destruction of men.
I promise no vitriol

[ April 26, 2006, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[doulous]

Brother Bob, 1 Kings 18. The entire chapter. And Brother Bob, I am not saying that God takes some sick glee at the death of the wicked. What I am saying is that when the wicked are judged God receives the glory because He is the personification of glory and righteousness. No sinful act can usurp God of His glory. Am I making sense?

 

[Brother Bob]

Not sure, there is a Glory about God I don't care where he is at or what He is doing and in most of the cases if not all it is talking in that sense, not that He is receiving glory out of destruction of men.

 

[whatever]

How about Exodus 14, especially verses 15-18?

The LORD said to Moses, "Why do you cry to me? Tell the people of Israel to go forward. Lift up your staff, and stretch out your hand over the sea and divide it, that the people of Israel may go through the sea on dry ground. And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten glory over Pharaoh, his chariots, and his horsemen."

 

[Brother Bob]

God certainly gave Israel the power to slay their ememies when they were obedient and on the other hand caused them to be overthrown when they were disobedient but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about God getting glory out of sinners and I don't see that was what was happening there with Elijah.

 

[Rippon]

I was just going to say Exodus 15:1-21 . That was the chapter where Moses and Miriam and the Israelites give praise to God for the destruction of the Egyptians . V.11... Who is like you -- majestic in holiness , awesome in glory , working wonders ? Or what about V. 21 ? Miriam sang to them : Sing to the Lord , for He is highly exalted . The horse and its rider He has hurled into the sea .

 

[Brother Bob]

God hardened Pharaoh's heart and He was trying to destroy God's people. God was fullfilling a promise to Israel that He would not leave them in bondage. He also has promised us if we believe that we can over come the devil and his angels. We are not talking about the same thing as if God is rejoicing from sinners, that is how this thread started or at least led into. He has always been a wall around His children. He gave them the wings of a great eagle where she flew into the wilderness and was nourished for a time and time and half a time and caused agreat flood to help her.

 

[whatever]

I thought we were discussing whether God gets glory from the destruction of the wicked. I'm not sure where "rejoicing" came from. I don't know that "rejoicing" is the best way to look at it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, you get Glory but no rejoicing. ok
No, it started because God was supposed to get Glory from evil.

 

[whatever]

Well, in Rev. 18 the saints and apostles and prophets are called to rejoice over the destruction of Babylon, so maybe that's not a completely wrong way to look at it either.

 

[Brother Bob]

Doesn't mean a person in general but fornication, adultery, sin of the world etc. Sure the saints will rejoice in the destruction of sin.

 

[whatever]

I take it to mean the sinners too, since when a city is destroyed its inhabitants are generally destroyed too, along with their behaviors. But I'm not gonna get vitriolic about it.

 

[npetreley]

You don't need to search for the word Glory to see the same sort of thing in action.

I once made the statement that sin is a necessary ingredient in the world in order for God to reveal the totality of who He is (not just His love and mercy, etc., but also His wrath). This is true whether He is revealing Himself to the objects of His wrath or to the objects of His mercy, or both. In this case, I am quoting just God displayin His righteous wrath. There are TONS of quotes I could use. This is but a small sample.

5And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

17 Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.

26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

6 In all your dwelling places the cities shall be laid waste, and the high places shall be desolate; that your altars may be laid waste and made desolate, and your idols may be broken and cease, and your images may be cut down, and your works may be abolished. 7 And the slain shall fall in the midst of you, and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

The king shall mourn, and the prince shall be clothed with desolation, and the hands of the people of the land shall be troubled: I will do unto them after their way, and according to their deserts will I judge them; and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ye shall fall by the sword; I will judge you in the border of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

And the cities that are inhabited shall be laid waste, and the land shall be desolate; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Now... there are plenty of verses where God makes Himself known through His other attributes. For example...

Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

But isn't it obvious that God also makes Himself known by displaying His wrath? Even if you don't see (or can't admit) that it's the same thing as God doing things for His own glory, it should be obvious from the verses above that God defines Himself at least in part by His wrath upon unrighteousness. Because when He displays His wrath, he so often says, "then you will know that I am the LORD."

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Benjamin:
But part of that control includes the ability of God to create His creatures with free will and to deny that is to deny His deny His sovereign ability to rule the world as He created it and the omnipotence that He has. You don’t have to explain how He does it you just have to humbly accept it. I know this is hard because it doesn’t fit into some of mans doctrines but…

That sounds possible, but it isn't. The moment God "sovereignly" decides that He will base his decision on what man decides, He elevates man's decision above His own. He abdicates His throne and makes man sovereign over that particular thing (in this case, man's eternal destiny).

It has nothing to do with man's doctrines (whatever they are). It's self-evident that when you pass the authority over something on to someone else, you've done just that -- you've abdicated your sovereignty over that particular issue.

What you end up with is that, "God sovereignly decided to abdicate his sovereignty over man's eternal destiny," which is nothing but double-talk. If God did that, he is no longer sovereign. </font>[/QUOTE]I find your definition of God’s sovereignty as lacking toward His complete ability to rule the world as He truthfully and originally designed it. God is in authority and that in itself makes Him sovereign and He does it within His truths. I find a lot of double talk in attempts to support the man made definitions of what God’s sovereignty must mean. See post below.

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Ken
I have thoroughly addressed this above, by providing extensive biblical proof (and could, if you ask, provide much much more) for the doctrine of absolute sovereignty.

I regard the scripture you have presented as professed biblical proof of your preconceived determinist view as having gone against the truth in God’s plan of creating His creatures with a true free will. Also I find your sovereignty doctrine insufficient and weak regarding God’s nature.

I noticed an extreme lack of biblical proof for your view. There is a reason for that, the common secular view of man's free will (that you seem to have) is not supported by the Bible.

You’re under the illusion that your doctrinal proof texts are biblically proving your points. I’ve read the Bible many times and have never interpreted one verse to support your common Calvinist doctrinal views of determinism in regards to man’s free will. You also presume to tell me how I must interpret your proof texts as supporting your view while insinuating mine as secular without knowing my intentions.

I can go through and point out the way I perceive your proof text to not support your view and then present verses to the contrary which then you say you don’t deny free will and say it’s “overridden”, then you throw out a bunch more verses and I return a bunch more and we can play games, tit for tat, trying to shoot down each others proof text to support their view by throwing out more proof texts, while searching for clever exegesis from other theologians on the web that support our view and use their work and reasoning to build on while accusing each other of twisting the scripture, wouldn’t that be fun?

Maybe we can get to that, but first I wanted to nail you down as having a determinist view and understand your logic of even claiming free will is free while saying it is overridden. Then I wanted to apply your logic to God’s omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence within the truth of God and His Word.

This board most often turns into a proof text spitting contest instead of a theological discussion board. Rarely do I see anyone explaining theological and philosophical terms by giving their own personal interpretations for clarification of their position in regard to the edifying of the brethren.

If we can’t establish some theological logic then we can’t even establish a simple truth. Proof text exercising is all good to build our familiarity with scripture and we can never get too much of that but to apply it without logic accomplishes little more than ending up going around in circles and becoming familiar with scripture.

For an example:

God exists in truth, He is Truth, without belief in the Truth of God we cannot logically say there is a God.

Would you agree with the following?

God through aseity can not learn, He knows all, always has, that would begin to define God’s perfect knowledge. If you agree that God can not learn as part of His self derived nature as a truth of His nature in existence, then God also being Omnipotent in the Truth of His nature has something He can not do as a truth within His Own will. It is part of the Divine aseity nature, that in the truth of God as He created it that He can not learn. This is a “truth factor” about God. God is Truth as He created it.

If God created the truth to be 2+2=4, then 2+2=5 can not logically be true.

I have put a lot of thought into theology because of my love of God and the biblical truth within His Word; I guess I could just adopt some man’s doctrine and accept it as truth but that’s not what the wisdom of the Spirit lead Word is leading me to do.

 

[epistemaniac]

well people complain about getting the "words of men", so I provide biblical proof for my position... then people complain that I am proof texting, so I provide exegesis supporting my understanding of the texts, and people complain that posts are too long.... what's a person to do lol....

you said

I regard the scripture you have presented as professed biblical proof of your preconceived determinist view as having gone against the truth in God’s plan of creating His creatures with a true free will. Also I find your sovereignty doctrine insufficient and weak regarding God’s nature.

thats all well and good, but it means exactly nothing, for you have not done anything to disprove my views, and nothing to prove your own.... all you have done is merely assert and there is no reason whatsoever to suppose that your mere assertions prove anything.

you said

Maybe we can get to that, but first I wanted to nail you down as having a determinist view and understand your logic of even claiming free will is free while saying it is overridden. Then I wanted to apply your logic to God’s omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence within the truth of God and His Word.

lol... you don't have to nail me down as having a determinist view, I can simply tell you that I do adhere to compatibilism... does that help? go ahead and look it up.... it's ok... and if you want some real "theological logic", you can read Jonathan Edwards "A Careful and Strict Enquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of that Freedom of Will which is supposed to be essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame," to get an idea of where I get my understanding of the will and how it operates. That should more than fill your need for "theological logic" Come back and let me know when you have read it.

Would you agree with the following? etc

I would agree that as a part of God's perfections, there are some things He cannot do, He cannot lie, He cannot make a circle a square, etc.

you say

God through aseity can not learn

You are misunderstanding the word "aseity", it doesn't have to do with what God can learn, rather, it has to do with God's self existence, and the fact that He is not dependent on anything else for His existence, He is not a contingent being and further, that God is a "necessary being", that is to say that God necessarily exists-- that it is impossible for God to not exist. SO God is an uncaused necessary being with no potentialities. So if you want to instruct me in "theological logic", you should at least start out by using the correct definitions of these words

lastly, you said

I have put a lot of thought into theology because of my love of God and the biblical truth within His Word; I guess I could just adopt some man’s doctrine and accept it as truth but that’s not what the wisdom of the Spirit lead Word is leading me to do.

good for you.... and guess what? I have put a lot of thought into theology as well, and since you want to bring this up, as if you are the only one who has put such effort into knowing what and why you believe, you may be interested to know that I graduated from a Christian college with a major in Biblical Counseling and a double minor in Systematic Theology and Apologetics with most of classes towards a Master's degree completed.... and since graduation I have continually studied, building my personal library to well over a thousand books, commentaries, systematic theologies, books on apologetics, etc, and have been an Admin at another theological forum for the past 6 years, having constantly defended my views against everyone from atheists, agnostics, wiccas, to liberals, JW's, Mormons, Christadelphians, Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, Open Theists and Evangelical Arminians etc. All this is simply to say that you should not assume anything about the level of my commitment or knowledge, just because you disagree with me. That is fine that you think I am wrong. Just don't confuse your "love for God and biblical truth within His word" for any lack of the same qualities on my part, that is, do not assume that I unthinkingly adopted "some man's doctrine". You do not know my heart, so any thought of you knowing my motives would you put you in the place that God alone occupies when it comes to knowing the hearts and motives of man.

blessings,
Ken

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
I find your definition of God’s sovereignty as lacking toward His complete ability to rule the world as He truthfully and originally designed it. God is in authority and that in itself makes Him sovereign and He does it within His truths. I find a lot of double talk in attempts to support the man made definitions of what God’s sovereignty must mean. See post below.

Sure, this is the typical free willer reply. God is sovereign, so if He wants to give man the free choice as to whether or not to be saved, that's His sovereign will being done.

Again, that's nothing but double-talk. The moment God turns over to man the key to salvation, He abdicates His throne on the issue. What you're saying amounts to "God sovereignly decided not to be sovereign in this decision." How silly can you get? You're just attributing the decision NOT to be sovereign to His sovereign will. You still end up with God not being sovereign.