God made them the vessels of wrath !

[JonC]

On the political forum @KenH has aptly demonstrated the problem with how this issue is often taken.

He believes that the elect can support a sinful environment (a situation that encourages sin) because they are the elect and will recieve no reward in heaven (other than getting there) and no accountability for their actions (because they are elect).

This applies here with "vessels of wrath". If we take this to mean God has determined their lost state then the church - and Christ Himself - can have no meaningful impact on the World.

Just like Christ has no meaningful value to the elect (they were chosen by the Father who used Jesus to take the punishment of the elect) Christ can also have no potential value to the reprobate.

The reprobate should be focused on their own desires because they have no hope. The elect are not wrong to seek out the desires of the flesh because it doesn't really matter.

 

[KenH]

@JonC, you had no businsess bringing my name into a thread in which I have not even participated, and do so in such a personal attack manner. Shame on you, sir! Shame on you! Now I feel compelled to take you to the theological woodshed.

He believes that the elect can support a sinful environment

A false, personal attack.

and will recieve no reward in heaven (other than getting there) and no accountability for their actions (because they are elect).

God's elect's reward is Christ - Genesis 15:1.

God's elect have been judged in Christ when He paid their total sin debt at the cross. Romans 5:9-11

God's elect do have accountability - Hebrews 12:5-13.

Christ Himself - can have no meaningful impact on the World.

God is absolutely, sovereign over His entire universe. He impacts every single atom in the universe. Not a single atom moves except for God's purposes and glory - Romans 9:19-21.

Just like Christ has no meaningful value to the elect

A false, unBiblical statement - 2 Corinthians 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:21.

QUOTE="JonC, post: 2894119, member: 12639"]Christ can also have no potential value to the reprobate[/QUOTE]

Those whom God reprobated before the world began, have a value in that even the wicked end up fulfilling God's purposes to His glory - Proverbs 16:4.

The elect are not wrong to seek out the desires of the flesh because it doesn't really matter.

A false, unBiblical statement - Hebrews 12:5-13.

 

[JonC]

@JonC, you had no businsess bringing my name into a thread in which I have not even participated. Shame on you, sir! Shame on you! Now I feel compelled to take you to the theological woodshed.



A false, personal attack.



God's elect's reward is Christ. Genesis 15:1.

God's elect have been judged in Christ when He paid their total sin debt at the cross. Romans 5:9-11

God's elect do have accountability - Hebrews 12:5-13.



God is absolutely, sovereign over His entire universe. He impacts every single atom in the universe. Not a single atom moves except for God's purposes and glory - Romans 9:19-21.



A false, unBiblical statement - 2 Corinthians 5:18; 2 Corinthians 5:21.

QUOTE="JonC, post: 2894119, member: 12639"]Christ can also have no potential value to the reprobate[/QUOTE

Those whom God reprobated before the world began, have a value in that even the wicked end up fulfilling God's purposes to His glory - Proverbs 16:4.



A false, unBiblical statement - Hebrews 12:5-13.

No, not a personal attack. That is a stupid claim.

You stated that a Christian can support anything in politics they want (the example was supporting the government requiring hospitals to perform abortion as birth control and allowing parents to gender transition pre-teen children).

You stated that the reward of the elect is Christ, that they will not be held accountable for how they conduct themselves during the time of their stay on this earth.


If the reprobate does not have an opportunity to be saved (no legitimate offer of salvation) then they should live their lives accordingly to their own desires.

 

[KenH]

@JonC, the short video below is how I feel.

 

[Brightfame52]

Now did God ordain some to destruction because of sin ? The answer is by no means, for God is not subject to the actions of His creatures, but His Purpose is the primary cause that some are ordained to destruction, however He decreed sin to enter to serve His purpose. Sin served Gods purpose as it related to the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath ! For all things, to include the actions of His creatures, serve the good pleasure of His will ! Eph 1:5,11

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 2

 

[JonC]

Now did God ordain some to destruction because of sin ? The answer is by no means, for God is not subject to the actions of His creatures, but His Purpose is the primary cause that some are ordained to destruction, however He decreed sin to enter to serve His purpose. Sin served Gods purpose as it related to the vessels of mercy and the vessels of wrath ! For all things, to include the actions of His creatures, serve the good pleasure of His will ! Eph 1:5,11

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 2

Good question.

But you do take kinda a philosophical bent (God responding to is God being subject to).

This could be asked another way - will God judge the wicked? If so, does this mean God is subject to the wicked?

 

[JonC]

@JonC, the short video below is how I feel.

I am less concerned about feelings than you, apparently.

You offered a perfect example of my point, so I used it here.

If men are decreed by God to be elect or reprobate, and there is no accountability for our actions, then our decisions do not matter.

The elect are free to condone, participate, and support the demonic and the reprobate are free to practice evil without repercussions for their actual actions.

 

[JonC]

Another related issue is how we know that we are "vessels of mercy" rather than "vessels of wrath".

One way is discipline when the "vessel of mercy" behaves as a "vessel of wrath".

A Christian may support ungodly things, but God will discipline them to correct the sin. Absence of discipline indicates one is Illegitimate (not truly a child of God).

 

[Brightfame52]

Good question.

But you do take kinda a philosophical bent (God responding to is God being subject to).

This could be asked another way - will God judge the wicked? If so, does this mean God is subject to the wicked?

You lost me

 

[JonC]

You lost me

And you me .

I was trying to work through your statement that if God created men as vessels of wrath because of their sin it woukd make God subject to man's actions.

It seems this would also mean that if God punishes men for sin it makes Gid subject to man's actions.

Just trying to think that part through.

 

[JonC]

Does Ephesians 2:3 apply (that we were once by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind)?

 

[Brightfame52]

@JonC

I was trying to work through your statement that if God created men as vessels of wrath because of their sin it woukd make God subject to man's actions.

You lost me again, i dont recall posting anything like that. Maybe you need to read it again

 

[Brightfame52]

Does Ephesians 2:3 apply (that we were once by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind)?

Yes but never vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction. The elect even by nature, have a wrath worthy nature like the rest of mankind, deserving of wrath, nevertheless they were always vessels of mercy.

 

[JonC]

@JonC



You lost me again, i dont recall posting anything like that. Maybe you need to read it again

I may have misunderstood you. This was what I was trying to work out:

Now did God ordain some to destruction because of sin ? The answer is by no means, for God is not subject to the actions of His creatures,

 

[JonC]

Yes but never vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction. The elect even by nature, have a wrath worthy nature like the rest of mankind, deserving of wrath, nevertheless they were always vessels of mercy.

I have not seen a passage that states that. Maybe it's the wording.

I do see that we were enemies of God, and that in Christ we escape the wrath to come (which seems to indicate we were facing that wrath....otherwise we wouldn't need the escape).

In other words, we cannot have be saved from something we were never endanger of facing.

 

[Brightfame52]

I may have misunderstood you. This was what I was trying to work out:

Okay I dont believe i can say it any plainer, but i didnt post what you said I posted, just keep reading it, it will come to you. I have to do that a lot when I read others.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have not seen a passage that states that. Maybe it's the wording.

I do see that we were enemies of God, and that in Christ we escape the wrath to come (which seems to indicate we were facing that wrath....otherwise we wouldn't need the escape).

In other words, we cannot have be saved from something we were never endanger of facing.

Scripture plainly sets forth two groups of people made by God, #1 Vessels of wrath and #2 Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

If you dont see it, Im afraid i cannot help you with that, but I see it, so I post it.

 

[JonC]

Okay I dont believe i can say it any plainer, but i didnt post what you said I posted, just keep reading it, it will come to you. I have to do that a lot when I read others.

Nah. I'm not interested enough to study a post in order to discover a meaning.

 

[JonC]

Scripture plainly sets forth two groups of people made by God, #1 Vessels of wrath and #2 Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

If you dont see it, Im afraid i cannot help you with that, but I see it, so I post it.

Yes. I know the passage very well (the whole passage, not just what you take out here).



"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires."

This part of the passage very strongly points to sin being the cause of the "vessels of wrath" and those remaining as such due to a "hardening".

 

[KenH]

If men are decreed by God to be elect or reprobate, and there is no accountability for our actions, then our decisions do not matter.

The elect are free to condone, participate, and support the demonic and the reprobate are free to practice evil without repercussions for their actual actions.

You don't understand the Bible in general nor the gospel of Christ in particular. I understand. I was once as you are.