God never designed or purposed to Save ALL men ever born.

[37818]

You trying to hide behind the son of perdition is not getting it done.
You ignore the whole teaching if the bible thinking you have found loophole but in reality you cannot answer any aspect of the O.P.
God has not designed to save everyone post fall.
Never was the intention.
Was the flood in Noah's day designed to promote universal salvation?
Did the Egyptian soldiers drowning in the red sea promote the gospel being available to them?
You have no where to go on this.

Universalism is a false accusation. Luke 22:20 did include perishing Judas Luke 22:21-22.

 

[37818]

Then the sins of Judas were not imputed to Christ, as Christ died for His sheep, according to Christ's own words.

And that does no negate Luke 22:20-21 included Judas.

 

[Reformed1689]

No. Judas was not in any way a sheep, and Jesus who had Judas at the table knew this, Luke 22:20-22.

Then he most certainly did NOT lay down His life for Judas since He, as He said, only laid down His life for the sheep.

 

[37818]

Then he most certainly did NOT lay down His life for Judas since He, as He said, only laid down His life for the sheep.

Luke 22:20-21, ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. . . ." That plural "you" does not exclude Jesus' betryer.

 

[agedman]

Is there a sense in which ALL of creation receives benefit/blessings of the death of Christ? Of course. So, if one says He died ON BEHALF (sadly, translated "for" from the Greek instead of "on behalf of") they are correct.

He died INSTEAD (again, translated simply "for" in many English translations but from the Greek meaning "instead of") the elect of the Father is also correct. Those whom Christ died to atone/take away their sin will be saved (or God is a liar) and not one lost.

Amazing that seeing an English word "for" can have so many meanings (more than 54). Confusing. Perhaps why God chose the precise Greek text to narrow down the meaning.

Dr. Bob!!

Wow! It is such joy to see you back posting on the BB!

Ever the encouragement to me and how I trust you will participate most often.

Wisdom you share are as apples of gold!

 

[SovereignGrace]

1 Timothy 2:4-6, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ." According to verse 6 the payment for the sin is only once. αντιλυτρον is singular for all. "all" is plural. 1 Timothy 4:10, ". . . in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. . . ."

I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.[Philippians 4:13]

 

[agedman]

You are so wrong!
Luke wrote, ". . . having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, . . ." Luke 1:3. So what Luke wrote in Luke 20:20-21 was in order by the Holy Spirit, ". . . from the very first . . . ." Literally "from above." Same word as "again" used in John 3:3.

so according to you, the Bible has contradictions? Read your own theologiand, Gill and Henry, both are clear that Judas took the Lord's Supper, as does the passage in Luke, which I have shown. Jesus Christ Shed His Blood for Judas

If I follow the accounts, with John’s account being the ONLY one in which Judas departs, then the sequence must be that which I presented.

You are both claiming something that did not occur using Scriptures that do not support your thinking.

Here is the sequence as presented in Scripture by combining the gospel accounts:

• They sit and eat the prepared meal
• While eating folks noticed the Lord’s countenance change
• The Lord discusses the future and the betrayer
• Satan enters Judas’s heart
• John is ask to find out who is the betrayer
• Leaning on the Lord, the Lord quietly states it is the one dipping in the gravy
• The Lord tells Judas to get on with his business
• Judas leaves
• The Lord institutes the reason for taking the bread and juice
• They partake
• They sing a hymn and leave for the hill.

That is the sequence unless you can prove by Scripture it is in error.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Then he most certainly did NOT lay down His life for Judas since He, as He said, only laid down His life for the sheep.

so Jesus is wrong and you are right???

 

[SavedByGrace]

If I follow the accounts, with John’s account being the ONLY one in which Judas departs, then the sequence must be that which I presented.

You are both claiming something that did not occur using Scriptures that do not support your thinking.

Here is the sequence as presented in Scripture by combining the gospel accounts:

• They sit and eat the prepared meal
• While eating folks noticed the Lord’s countenance change
• The Lord discusses the future and the betrayer
• Satan enters Judas’s heart
• John is ask to find out who is the betrayer
• Leaning on the Lord, the Lord quietly states it is the one dipping in the gravy
• The Lord tells Judas to get on with his business
• Judas leaves
• The Lord institutes the reason for taking the bread and juice
• They partake
• They sing a hymn and leave for the hill.

That is the sequence unless you can prove by Scripture it is in error.

Luke 22:19-21

And He took bread and gave thanks, and He broke it and gave it to them, saying, This is My body which is given for you, this do in remembrance of Me. In the same way He took the cup, after having dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for YOU. But, behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table"

That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord’s Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order. (A T Robertson)

From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over (John Gill, Reformed)

By placing this after the institution of the Lord's supper, though in Matthew and Mark it is placed before it, it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. (Matthew Henry Reformed)

Luke is a first-class historian

Now shows that Judas did not hear the words from Jesus, "My blood, which is being poured out for YOU"; and that he was not part of the Lord's Supper, and took it with the other 11

There is zero contradictions in the Bible, except those created by those who refuse to accept what the Bible Teaches, for the sake of their personal doctrines!

 

[Iconoclast]

Universalism is a false accusation. Luke 22:20 did include perishing Judas Luke 22:21-22.

Lk22 has. Nothing to do with the O.P. at all
This is a foolish attempt to avoid that which is Coventally clear .
The lengths you will go to avoid truth is quite startling.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The lengths you will go to avoid truth is quite startling.

yeah, like you refuse to accept Luke's account that Judas took the Lord's Supper!

 

[Iconoclast]

yeah, like you refuse to accept Luke's account that Judas took the Lord's Supper!

That Judas was present at the Lords supper, and partook in an unworthy manner changes nothing.
The lengths you will go to in avoiding truth has no bounds.
Jesus spoke of him as does psalm41.:9.
God will save each and every person He has intended to...not one more, not one less.
He does not try and fail as you suggest...He accomplished all His good pleasure as He always does.Isa46:9-11.
Your man centered ideas and false theology wilts when biblical theology appears on the scene. Man centered philosophy is rubbish
Each Calvinist has supplied important and vital truth and offered you and others who seek to hide behind the son of perdition necessary biblical correction. You should take the help offered.

 

[SavedByGrace]

That Judas was present at the Lords supper, and partook in an unworthy manner changes nothing.
The lengths you will go to in avoiding truth has no bounds.
Jesus spoke of him as does psalm41.:9.
God will save each and every person He has intended to...not one more, not one less.
He does not try and fail as you suggest...He accomplished all His good pleasure as He always does.Isa46:9-11.
Your man centered ideas and false theology wilts when biblical theology appears on the scene. Man centered philosophy is rubbish
Each Calvinist has supplied important and vital truth and offered you and others who seek to hide behind the son of perdition necessary biblical correction. You should take the help offered.

The POINT is, that Jesus spoke the words about His blood being shed for YOU, in the presence of Judas. That Jesus gave Judas the Bread and Cup that represents His Body and Blood, which was also given for Judas. These are FACTS, not your theological FICTION!!!

 

[kyredneck]

Are you suggesting God designed to save Judas,who did not partake of the cup in a worthy manner?

yeah, like you refuse to accept Luke's account that Judas took the Lord's Supper!

Moot point/non-issue. @Reformed1689 nailed it on another thread.

 

[agedman]

Luke 22:19-21

And He took bread and gave thanks, and He broke it and gave it to them, saying, This is My body which is given for you, this do in remembrance of Me. In the same way He took the cup, after having dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for YOU. But, behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table"

That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord’s Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order. (A T Robertson)

From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over (John Gill, Reformed)

By placing this after the institution of the Lord's supper, though in Matthew and Mark it is placed before it, it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. (Matthew Henry Reformed)

Luke is a first-class historian

Now shows that Judas did not hear the words from Jesus, "My blood, which is being poured out for YOU"; and that he was not part of the Lord's Supper, and took it with the other 11

There is zero contradictions in the Bible, except those created by those who refuse to accept what the Bible Teaches, for the sake of their personal doctrines!

Ok, I will admit I was in error.

This does fulfill some old testament statements, too.

Very good.

 

[Iconoclast]

The POINT is, that Jesus spoke the words about His blood being shed for YOU, in the presence of Judas. That Jesus gave Judas the Bread and Cup that represents His Body and Blood, which was also given for Judas. These are FACTS, not your theological FICTION!!!

We are not Roman Catholic. JUDAS did not eat the Eucharist....Judas did not partake in a worthy manner.
If anything he brought damnation on himself.
This has nothing to do with the O.P.
Are you trying to say that God was attempting to "save" Judas?
Do you think God was trying to "save" Pharaoh?

 

[Iconoclast]

1 Timothy 2:4-6, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . ." According to verse 6 the payment for the sin is only once. αντιλυτρον is singular for all. "all" is plural. 1 Timothy 4:10, ". . . in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. . . ."

Explain 1 Tim 4:10
Explain what this verse is saying to you???

 

[37818]

Explain 1 Tim 4:10
Explain what this verse is saying to you???

I am of the point of view Christ's atonement is the reason names are in the book of life. It provides an available gift to all. Mark 10:15. It is available to children without being of an age to believe, Mark 10:14. Otherwise, John 3:3-18. 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5, John 1:12-13. God solely does the saving and the keeping, John 10:27-30.

Faith is what God asks of man. But man's faith does not cause the new birth. John 1:13. 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 20:15.

 

[Iconoclast]

Faith is what God asks of man. But man's faith does not cause the new birth. John 1:13. 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 20:15.

Your post is off topic.
You offer 1tim4:10

Do I have to spell it out for you?
It says Jesus is the Saviour of all men..

1] in what way is He the Saviour of all men?
Are all men who are ever born, saved?
Saved from What?
If it is not all men who are ever born, then who is it talking about of?

2] it then says......specially those who believe.
What does this mean?
How is the second part different from the first?

 

[37818]

Do I have to spell it out for you?
It says Jesus is the Saviour of all men..

1] in what way is He the Saviour of all men?
Are all men who are ever born, saved?
Saved from What?
If it is not all men who are ever born, then who is it talking about of?

2] it then says......specially those who believe.
What does this mean?
How is the second part different from the first?

We seem to differ in in some way our unnderstanding of Jesus being Savior of all men. I do not understand that to mean universalism. But rather He bought the gift of salvation on behalf all men that believe. Not that all men receive the gift. It must be received solely as a gift, Matthew 7:21-23.