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God, That's not fair!

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
I just wanted to point out to you that your doctrine of God offering a way of escape to every man still faces faces similar dillemas as the calvinist, perhaps to even a greater degree. Why? If man has free will ability to escape Hell, then why didnt God simply create those people that he knew by their own free will would accept him ? Why did God even choose to create those many people he knew would eventually reject him and spend eternity in Hell?
I don't pretend to be able to answer that, and I don't beleive we can, given our incomplete knowledge. This is where we place the "tension" as Calvinists often speak of. That is quite a different cry from God having a malicious intent towards certain individuals, unconditionally, from the beginning as He conceived of them as living souls; and bringing them into a state of sin and condemnation just to leave them that way and not even want to save them (yet pretend to "offer" salvation to them). Calvinists just take the tension one step further in assuming that, but it contradicts too much in scripture regarding God's character. Calvinists have been trying to insist that God is not "responsible" for their sin, and this position does that more consistently.
Further, "free will" atonement insures the ultimate salvation of no one, but only makes it possible. On the other hand, the calvinist's atonement actually GUARANTEES the eternal salvation of people. As it is written, "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he SHALL save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)
Brother Eric, from what we know of God's character in the Bible, isnt it safe to conclude that more people would get to heaven if it were up to God to choose and not the individual?Finally, judging from what the Bible tells us of the condition and nature of man (see Romans 3),would you feel more comfortable with your ultimate eternal destiny in your hands or Gods?
And anyne who receives Christ IS "actually" "guaranteed" to be saved. I find that this "makes possible" jargon is a logical tactic, and is not what the scripture addresses. Even in Calvinism there is a loophole that forces it into the same problem, because one must "persevere" until the end to "prove" himself elect, and people here have even admitted that our "faith" can be "fallible" (i.e. "in vain"). That's even worse, since it ultimately is a decree from God, and the person can do nothing about it. (People struggling with faith have gone mad over this).
I have a question for you. If you are a Christian (and judging from your posts I believe your are), why is it you have made the righteous decision to choose the Lord Jesus as your savior and others have not? Is it because you are more righteous or intelligent then your neighbor who has rejected him?
I guess it's time for my testimony again.

In my late teens I was one who "ran" from God, associating Him with racist right-wingers and control freaks who used Hell to scare people into submission and financial manipulation; all fundamentalists did was attack others' beliefs, it seemed, and I had heard the horror stories from my parents and others about the so-called "Christian morality" and racism of the past.
This prefectly fits with the scripture that "Noone seeks God".
But then through a series of circumstances, God gradually began showing me the follies of the world. Being a quiet and highly intellectual loner, I didn't even have all the friends, women, parties, etc., and I believe God used this as well. He even used some false stuff to finally bring me in— the Plain Truth, in Armstrong's final years, where he was excerpting his writings on Revelation. The fulfilled and unfolding endtime prophecy made me start to see the validity of the Bible, and then it all fell into place— man's sin, including my own; why the world is the way it is; why the Church is that way it is, and that my loathing of Christian morality and doctrine before was my old nature's hostility towards God, and the discomfort I felt when God was mentioned was the conviction of the Spirit. Reading the Bible on my own, I saw that Armstrongism was full of false doctrines on other issues, and I avoided them. I sat on the fence for a while, but finally was convicted into making a decision, and prayed to God for Him to show Himself to me, and "I believe; help my unbelief".
It's obvious that God was the one doing all the work. I, in the resistant state before, did not just one day wake up and say "Oh, I must now will myself to believe in order to be saved". I felt like that at times, but then came to learn to rest in God's finished work. Sometimes I wish I could have gotten saved earlier, but it would have been impossible. In the mindset I was in, I was "blinded" and could not simply change my mind. God was drawing, but I still had a way to go before finally being led to Him. At no point did I say "OK, God did His part, now it's time for me to do mine", or think that I "closed some deal" with God. Never did I "boast" of anything. I have probably not done 1% of anything, let alone the "50%" I see 'free will' accused of. Even today I struggle and sometimes I wonder if I really believe. But then I remember that salvation is all of God, and none of my striving (including trying to "believe" when I feel doubt)(Romans 4:5). There are many "hard teachings" (the fact that any people, including those I love go to an eternal Hell, period) and rules the Bible tells me to obey, that I wish I didn't have to. But it is God who has given me the ability to believe and obey. Despite all of my shortcomings, there has been a great change in my life, not of my own doing. So I testify that my conversion was all of God, but the difference between me and some is that I do not assume that because it was God who led me like that, then everyone who was not so led is "passed over" or "reprobated". (Yet, I'm told if I don't believe this, then I'm ultimately "boasting" of "saving myself" by the "work" of "conjuring up faith from my old nature". But that does not match what I experienced.) They resisted; the cares of this life were more important, etc. It is a choice just like any other, as people can either choose to do a particular sin, but even with their depravity, can refrain from it for some reason, even though their "nature" may be leading them that way. We cannot see into another person's heart, so making a comparison of why one person believes and another resists, is above our scope of knowledge. The resistance is an active "work" that "earns" something (death). My acceptance was passive, so was not a work that saved me or made me "better" than anyone else. So man's choice is not simply that he's walking around wallowing in sin and then one day just suddenly snaps out of it on his own willing. If this was what we were arguing, then perhaps the Calvinist objections regarding man's "inability" would be warranted. God does all the drawing, but man at one point must decide to follow or continue in rebellion.
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother Eric,

Hello again.

YOU:This is where we place the "tension" as Calvinists often speak of. That is quite a different cry from God having a malicious intent towards certain individuals, unconditionally, from the beginning as He conceived of them as living souls; and bringing them into a state of sin and condemnation just to leave them that way and not even want to save them (yet pretend to "offer" salvation to them). Calvinists just take the tension one step further in assuming that, but it contradicts too much in scripture regarding God's character. Calvinists have been trying to insist that God is not "responsible" for their sin, and this position does that more consistently

ME: Unlike the position you described by some calvinists above, I do NOT believe the atonement is offered to all. The reason being is because scripture teaches repeatedly that the cross actually accomplished redeemed, saved, and reconciled men, not simply made it POSSIBLE for men to be redeemed. An atonement of this nature obviously cant apply to all men or all would be saved. Many do not subscribe to such a efficious atonement, but the uniform testimony of scripture makes it evident that this is what occured on calvary. We read:

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION for us." (Hebrews 9:12)

"Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him" (Romans 5:9)

"For BY ONE OFFERING HE HATH PERFECTED for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14)

"For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF." (Hebrews 9:26)

"For if, when we were enemies, we were RECONCILED TO GOD BY THE DEATH to God of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be SAVED BY HIS LIFE." (Romans 5:10)

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Colossians 2:13-16)

" Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED." (Isaiah 53:4-5)

"Who was delivered for our offences, and was RAISED AGAIN FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION" (Romans 4:25)

I do not see the gospel as an offer, but rather a decleration to his people that God has already saved his people. I like the comparison to Abraham Lincoln and his proclamation to flee the slaves. The proclomation actually did effectively free the slaves, but it didnt profit any of the slaves in this world until they heard the news they were free to go. They were already free, but it profited them when they heard the news.

Likewise scripture says the gospel is like a light. What does a light do? It helps us see what is going on and shows us the truth. We read, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality TO LIGHT THROUGH THE GOSPEL" (2 Timothy 1:9-10) Notice the grace was already given before the world began, acted out on on calvary, and finally made manifest via the gospel.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother Eric,

YOU: I don't pretend to be able to answer that, and I don't beleive we can, given our incomplete knowledge. This is where we place the "tension" as Calvinists often speak of. That is quite a different cry from God having a malicious intent towards certain individuals, unconditionally, from the beginning as He conceived of them as living souls

ME: I would like to point out that calvinist and non calvinist both have to struggle with the common mystery of how with an all good righteous God who does no evil or creates no evil , "where did the devil come from?...Whether we are speaking of the fall of man or the fall of Satan we stil are deaing with the problem of good creatures becoming evil"(Chosen By God, Sproul)

I do not have the answer, nor does the writer of that book above pretend to. I suppose we may know (Lord willing) on the other side of heaven.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe

PS I hope to respond to the rest of your post perhaps tommorow. God bless and take care brother Eric!
 

At His Feet

New Member
i will say this though:
we have no business questioning God's fairness.
is it fair that His perfect only Son would have to be the payment for our sins? fair or not Jesus did die for us.
we don't look at the whole picture. God does. He knows the beginning and the end. Trust Him that He doeth all things well.
Praise God that He in true fairness didn't give us all what we deserve but showered His grace and mercy upon us.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
Actually, this thread was started by a Calvinist.
Nobody is questioning God's fairness, just a particular doctrine that raises questions on it.
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
Unlike the position you described by some calvinists above, I do NOT believe the atonement is offered to all. The reason being is because scripture teaches repeatedly that the cross actually accomplished redeemed, saved, and reconciled men, not simply made it POSSIBLE for men to be redeemed. An atonement of this nature obviously cant apply to all men or all would be saved. Many do not subscribe to such a efficious atonement, but the uniform testimony of scripture makes it evident that this is what occured on calvary.
I do not see the gospel as an offer, but rather a decleration to his people that God has already saved his people. I like the comparison to Abraham Lincoln and his proclamation to flee the slaves. The proclomation actually did effectively free the slaves, but it didnt profit any of the slaves in this world until they heard the news they were free to go. They were already free, but it profited them when they heard the news.
Likewise scripture says the gospel is like a light. What does a light do? It helps us see what is going on and shows us the truth. Notice the grace was already given before the world began, acted out on on calvary, and finally made manifest via the gospel.
Once again, you are making an issue out of "actually accomplished" vs. "possible", but once again, it is "Actually accomplished" and the scriptures you posted are true for us without others being "passed over". This stems from our inability to span eternity and its relation to our world of time.
While other Calvinists would share your statement about actual accomplishment, still, the PB view that the Gospel is just a "proclamation" to the "sheep" and not a call to all, calls into question whether they were ever really "lost" to begin with.
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother or sister At His Feet,

Good day.

YOU: i will say this though:
we have no business questioning God's fairness.
is it fair that His perfect only Son would have to be the payment for our sins? fair or not Jesus did die for us. we don't look at the whole picture. God does.

ME: I agree with you. I was just raising a question that both sides (calvinist and noncalv) perhaps dont contemplate.

It is important to define what me mean by "fair." If one means by fair that God treats all people alike , both the Calvinist AND the Arminian would be forced to conclude ,"no, God has not treated every human equally." Dr. R.C. Sproul writes "Nothing could be clearer from the Bible than that. God appeared to Moses in a way that he did not appear to Hammurabi. God gave blessings to Israel that he did not give to Persia. Christ appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus in a way he did not manifest to Pilate."(Sproul, Chosen By God). Also, God gave mercy to Jacob, but not Esau.

Sproul goes on to mention what is most commonly meant by "fair" when this debate comes up- is that it doesnt seem just if God choose some to receive his mercy, but not others. However, he rightly concludes just because God choose to give some people justice and others mercy doesnt make God unrighteous in either case. If God were obligated to show grace to everyone, then grace is no longer grace because by it's very definition grace is something that is not obligated or deserved.

I do not see how God would be "unfair" to give some justice and others mercy.

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother Eric,

Hello.

YOU: And anyne who receives Christ IS "actually" "guaranteed" to be saved. I find that this "makes possible" jargon is a logical tactic, and is not what the scripture addresses. Even in Calvinism there is a loophole that forces it into the same problem

ME: I do not think emphasizing the difference between the atonement that you believe in and the one the calvinist proclaims is just a play on words. Why?

you are saying~~~~~1)God provided an oppurtunity for all to be saved

In contrast, Im saying

~~~~~~2) God has intervened directly and insured the salvation of "many" Romans 5:19,Hebrews 9:28)

I think it is an important diferrence that effects ones whole outlook regarding individual salvation and the gospel. For me, knowing that God has reserved a people for himself makes me want to spread the gospel because in essence God has guarenteed the results will not come back unfruitful. Also, God plays a greater role in my individual salvation in the 2nd scenario....he gets all the glory! Finally, in the first scenario it is possible that no one gets saved! "If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God's sovereignty (in this case it would be the will of every human being), then we have no guarentee that a single promise of God will ever be fufilled...We have heard the story: For want of a nail the shoe was lost; for want of the shoe the horse was lost; for want of the horse the rider was lost;for want of the battle the war was lost." (Sproul, Chosen By God)

It sounds funny , but remember just one grain of sand in Oliver Cromwell's kidney changed the course of English history.

Finally (dont worry Im wrapping this up), in atonement scenario number one we have some that Jesus died for, ultimatly pereshing and going to Hell. This would make Jesus somewhat of a failure or to put it more lightly not totally succesful in his mission since he said, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

But this CANNOT AND WILL NOT be, for Jesus did "save HIS PEOPLE from their sins"(Matthew 1:21) and "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me (John 6:37).

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother Eric,

YOU: . Even in Calvinism there is a loophole that forces it into the same problem, because one must "persevere" until the end to "prove" himself elect, and people here have even admitted that our "faith" can be "fallible" (i.e. "in vain"). That's even worse, since it ultimately is a decree from God, and the person can do nothing about it. (People struggling with faith have gone mad over this).

ME: I do not know wether or not I agree completly with the doctrine of "perseverence of the saints." I DO believe a true believer cant lose his salvation and WILL have good works AND fruit if he is truly saved, BUT Im not sure IF IT IS TO THE DEGREE THAT MOST CALVINISTS EMPHASIZE. Im not dogmatic or opinionated on this matter as most people are. Just dont know yet, and if God isnt willing I never will know the truth of this matter lol!

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother Eric,

I read your testimony and it is powerful. I thank God the Lord found you and rescued you from sin! Isnt he great?!!!Unfortunatly I cant spend any more time online tonight per wife's orders! So, Lord willing I will share my thoughts on your conversion tomorrow. It was good to hear your testimony. Take care and have a good evening!

Brother Joe
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Ian,

Even in the quote you provide from Calvin the issue is not discussed because he is not being pressed as you are. Calvin never says that the Jews being judicially hardened in Romans 9 most certainly could not be elect and saved at a later time.

You must recognize the reason God judicially hardens men who are already self hardened sinners. Your system doesn't address that adequately. Why harden a hardened man? My system answers that perfectly and biblically by showing that God's hardening is temporary and purposeful as the judicial hardening of the Jews prevents them from believing for a time while God accomplishes the His purposes through their unbelief. This perfectly parallels with Pharoah. Your system can't answer this. You have men being born hardened, becoming more hardened once exposed to the sinful world and then being judicially hardened by God for no apparent reason whatsoever. His hardened doesn't accomplish anything in your system. Think about it. Had God not judicially hardened the non-elect Jews would anything have changed? No. It has no purpose in your system! It's a waist of time, energy and effort on God's part, and Paul was waisting his time and ours writing about it. In fact, I submit to you that the only thing judicial hardening does in the Calvinistic system is make God look ruthless and merciless to the lost and saved alike.

Please tell me what judicial hardening accomplishes in your system? In other words, if it didn't happen what would be different?
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I do not see the gospel as an offer, but rather a decleration to his people that God has already saved his people. I like the comparison to Abraham Lincoln and his proclamation to flee the slaves. The proclomation actually did effectively free the slaves, but it didnt profit any of the slaves in this world until they heard the news they were free to go. They were already free, but it profited them when they heard the news.
So, you believe that one can be saved apart from faith? People are walking around right now who have been saved and atoned for by Christ but who have not believed upon Christ yet because they have yet to hear? What doctine is this? Read your bible and you will see that atonement has always been applied THROUGH FAITH. You have got the cart before the horse by trying to teach that a man is atoned for before the faith is present for which it can be applied. The sacrificial act may be accomplished but the application of that atonement is not applied until faith is evident and therefore the gospel call is indeed an offer to whosoever will. Yes, even in the Calvinistic system the gospel is merely an offer because the "elect" have not yet received that which must be applied through faith. Granted, you could argue that it is an offer they can't refuse (irresistable grace) but it is still an offer and therefore cannot be conclusively shown that it is not intended for all who hear it.
 

Ian Major

New Member
Skandelon said,
Even in the quote you provide from Calvin the issue is not discussed because he is not being pressed as you are. Calvin never says that the Jews being judicially hardened in Romans 9 most certainly could not be elect and saved at a later time.

Calvin called them 'reprobate' - unchangeably lost.

Please tell me what judicial hardening accomplishes in your system? In other words, if it didn't happen what would be different?

Here is the difference between TD and the special hardening given to the reprobate Jews, according to Calvin:
'The Prophet was indeed bidden to harden the heart of the people: but Paul penetrates to the very fountain, -- that brutal stupor seizes on all the senses of men, after they are given up to this madness, so that they excite themselves by virulent stimulants against the truth. For he does not call it the spirit of giddiness, but of compunction, when the bitterness of gall shows itself; yea, when there is also a fury in rejecting the truth. And he declares, that by the secret judgment of God the reprobate are so demented, that being stupified, they are incapable of forming a judgment; for when it is said, that by seeing they see nothing, the dullness of their senses is thereby intimated.'

What would be different? For the individual in eternal terms, nothing. In temporal things, perhaps an extra hostility to the gospel and to the gospel messenger. But for the nation, some TD Jews will be saved; but no hardened will. The hardened are to form the bulk of Israel until the the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That is a big difference from what could have been expected.

In Him

Ian
 

Ian Major

New Member
Eric said,
But if God's placement of a person in the world in a place where he never hears the Gospel and never gets saved is just His means of ordaining this person as a vessel of wrath, then we see here a prime example of Him saying "not for you". If a person MUST 1)hear the Gospel, and 2) be enabled to accept it, and God withholds one of those steps, then it IS "not for you"! Remember; as you said, none of this was by chance, and that includes the Fall of man into sin and a "wicked nature". If this was done with the purpose of only saving some, then it is simply not for the others; no matter how much you say it is "offered" to them.

It is not the same as God witholding salvation from any who want it, as your objection implied. It is indeed NOT for the unrepentant. You may object that God must grant repentance to everyone, but God is under no such obligation to wicked men. He may choose to give repentance and faith to whom He will.

But the Bible says all were so concluded in sin so that God could have mercy on all (Romans 11:32).

The 'all' can justly refer to the two groups Paul is discussing - the Jews and Gentiles - not to all men without exception.

Another scriptural principle that should have been mentioned a long time ago is James 1:13-14 with 1 Cor.10:13-- God does not tempt man, and when a man is tempted, God always "makes a way of escape". Now, you may say that this is for the "elect" only, but it is in reference to what is "common to man". So yes, God may have ordained for sin to have occurred, but He provided every man a way to escape, and this means actually provided; not held something out to them that they cannot reach (remember, the Law was teaching them about sin and need for a sacrifice; and they still were provided a way to be saved back then).

We are back to your view that man is not to blame for his own sin and that God MUST bail him out. The way of escape is open to all, but if their wicked heart prevents them availing it, then is God to blame?

I shouldn't say "real" then; as I guess it would be "real" just because God pronounced it; just like their "responsibility". A better word would be actual or practical, as "in practice". They do not actually have any choice, as they are apparently programmed by their nature to only reject God.

Ok, that's a fair enough distinction between 'real' and 'practical'. But your last sentence implies you still think they are not truly guilty/responsible for their sin; that being born at enmity with God is something they are innocent of. That is not how God views it, and it is His view we must submit to, even if we cannot understand it all.

In Him

Ian
 

Eric B

Active Member
Site Supporter
It is not the same as God witholding salvation from any who want it, as your objection implied. It is indeed NOT for the unrepentant. You may object that God must grant repentance to everyone, but God is under no such obligation to wicked men. He may choose to give repentance and faith to whom He will.

We are back to your view that man is not to blame for his own sin and that God MUST bail him out. The way of escape is open to all, but if their wicked heart prevents them availing it, then is God to blame?

But your last sentence implies you still think they are not truly guilty/responsible for their sin; that being born at enmity with God is something they are innocent of. That is not how God views it, and it is His view we must submit to, even if we cannot understand it all.
The 'all' can justly refer to the two groups Paul is discussing - the Jews and Gentiles - not to all men without exception.
In the overall scheme of things that Calvinism keeps trying to explain, yes, they are not at "fault" for being BORN as sinners, as nobody preexisted their own birth and decided to be born a sinner. Even though Augustine was the one who first popularized the ideas behind Calvinism, there was considerable influence by Origen, who taught in fact, that men did preexist with Christ, and all turned away from God except for Christ. Thus they were born sinful, while He was born sinless. That is the only system in which you could truly say man was really "responsible" for being born a sinner, and thus if God refuses some or all repentance, it is quite "just".

Where CHARGED "guilt" (responsibility) comes from is what we do once we are shown, or even convicted of the fact that what we are doing is sin (James 4:17, Rom. 14:23). So no, God does not make everyone be born in sin, and say that THEY did it to themselves, which is impossible since the condition is from before they even became a conscious soul. The reason why we say He must bail them out, is because this is what HE purposed according to His plan of "good will" toward all men. THEN, if they are "unwilling", they suffer the fate. (So actually, it's not He MUST bail them out, but that He sets the means by which people can be bailed out, and not all are, but truly because of their own choice, not because of what they were born as). He may have "had the right" to do as you say, and no one is disputing that, but He also had the right to do it as we have seen it in scriptures. Appealing to "can't understand it" cannot justify a doctrine that alters the character attributed to God in scripture; that He desires the salvation of all, gets no pleasure in destruction of the wicked, yet does allow them to make their own decision. With this in mind, it is clear that passages like Romans 11 and the rest describing "all" or "world" include all individuals as well as all groups. Asking stuff like "what if no one got saved" is an unbiblical proposition on something we can't understand, (God being in control means that He prevented that, but it's exactly how that we do not know); but to propose that it's because He chose them and "passed over" all others, leaving them in some state of sin that He ordained, yet says they are "guilty"/"responsible" just to have a reason to condemn them completely changes the orientation of God, into Love AND hate (as some more radical types do insist), or even hate primarily, with love as some exception bestowed on the relative few; but this is not what the Bible says. Love is what God "IS". Hate is only a reaction to those who spurn His love, and not what He starts out as.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Ian Major:
Skandelon said,
Even in the quote you provide from Calvin the issue is not discussed because he is not being pressed as you are. Calvin never says that the Jews being judicially hardened in Romans 9 most certainly could not be elect and saved at a later time.

Calvin called them 'reprobate' - unchangeably lost.
But how do you know he is refering to all the hardened ones and not just the non-elect hardened ones? Now we have to deal with interpreting Calvin's intent? great...

Here is the difference between TD and the special hardening given to the reprobate Jews, according to Calvin:
'The Prophet was indeed bidden to harden the heart of the people: but Paul penetrates to the very fountain, -- that brutal stupor seizes on all the senses of men, after they are given up to this madness, so that they excite themselves by virulent stimulants against the truth. For he does not call it the spirit of giddiness, but of compunction, when the bitterness of gall shows itself; yea, when there is also a fury in rejecting the truth. And he declares, that by the secret judgment of God the reprobate are so demented, that being stupified, they are incapable of forming a judgment; for when it is said, that by seeing they see nothing, the dullness of their senses is thereby intimated.'
Again, this doesn't address our argument. Could not a man be in this "mad state" and still be irresistably called by God if indeed he was elect? Paul was pretty "mad" when he was killing Christians don't you think? How much hardened can one be? Paul refers to himself as the chief of sinners yet you contend that the other Jews were more hardened than he ever was.

What would be different? For the individual in eternal terms, nothing. In temporal things, perhaps an extra hostility to the gospel and to the gospel messenger.
Perhaps? Is there any biblical support for your claims? How can one be more hostile to Christ than Paul was? The point of hardening was to keep them from believing and being saved before God accomplished his purposes in their unbelief and your explaination totally nullifies that purpose.

But for the nation, some TD Jews will be saved; but no hardened will. The hardened are to form the bulk of Israel until the the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That is a big difference from what could have been expected.
There are large groups of believing Jews. In fact, I would think that the case could be made that their are a higher percent of Jewish people who are professing Christians within the Jewish population than their are Gentiles within the Gentile population. Sure there are more Gentile believers overall but relative to the Gentile versus Jewish population I wouldn't think the percentage of those from Jewish heritage would be unproportional to others. If the nation was being hardened as a whole wouldn't there be some kind of a difference between them and those nations not being hardened?
 

Eric B

Active Member
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I think it is an important diferrence that effects ones whole outlook regarding individual salvation and the gospel. For me, knowing that God has reserved a people for himself makes me want to spread the gospel because in essence God has guarenteed the results will not come back unfruitful.
But then you have no bearing on it's fruitfulness. All you are doing is fulfilling a script where God used you, and if you didn't do it, that would have been what He scripted (and hold you "responsible"), and either use someone else, or the person would not have been (unconditionally) "one of His own). Besides, no one is God's people until they are already converted, not before.
Also, God plays a greater role in my individual salvation in the 2nd scenario....he gets all the glory!
No, in the first, he gets no less glory than in your view where He used you. Unless "writing everything and then stepping back to let it play out" is what is necessary for "glory".
Finally, in the first scenario it is possible that no one gets saved! "If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God's sovereignty (in this case it would be the will of every human being), then we have no guarentee that a single promise of God will ever be fufilled...We have heard the story: For want of a nail the shoe was lost; for want of the shoe the horse was lost; for want of the horse the rider was lost;for want of the battle the war was lost." (Sproul, Chosen By God)
This, as I just said above, is an unbiblcal hypothesis that cannot be answered. God is in control to prevent this, and how He does this without setting up a script world where people are "guilty" simply for their role in the script, is what we cannot understand.
Finally [again! :cool: ], in atonement scenario number one we have some that Jesus died for, ultimatly pereshing and going to Hell. This would make Jesus somewhat of a failure or to put it more lightly not totally succesful in his mission since he said, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).
Like the blood of the passover, it has to be applied to be of effect. I guess the whole idea of reprobation and holding people responsible for what they could not help is to try to prevent God/Christ from being a "failure", so we would rather have Him trapping people in an inescapable state of sin. (In fact, that's "bad" --in the street sense-- strong, showing off power, fearsome, etc.). But once again, we cannot take it upon ourselves to read such things into scripture for such a purpose. For if you acknowledge that He does not desire the death of the wicked, even if you say that is the tension (with Him ordaining it, unconditionally, anyway), you would still end up with the same problem. In some way, one of His "wills" was a failure, though you have this other will that is successful. It is the same with our view, though we recognize a different set of "wills. God's ultimate will is till accomplished, though people who He loved and sent His Son to die for chose to remain lost.
I read your testimony and it is powerful. I thank God the Lord found you and rescued you from sin! Isnt he great?!!!
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BrotherJoe

New Member
BRother Skandelon,

YOU:So, you believe that one can be saved apart from faith?

ME: NO and I NEVER SAID that. One can have faith in the Lord without actually having heard a formal presentation of the gospel. The Holy Spirit quickens, regenerates, and gives EVERYONE who is going to heaven faith. No person will get to heaven who doesnt have faith.

YOU:people are walking around right now who have been saved and atoned for by Christ but who have not believed upon Christ yet because they have yet to hear? What doctine is this?

ME: The answer is yes. God quickens his children before they have heard the "formal" gospel. I believe many babies who die in infancy will go to heaven and are examples of this and also the mentally handicap. What do YOU do with these people, do they go to Hell?? If they go to heaven, how? In order for you to be logically consistent you would have to conclude they go to Hell with your doctrine.

Jesus doesnt make people alive by a preachers voice, no he reveals himself personally by "his voice. He stated, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25) A preacher can utter the words of Jesus but not the voice!

Scripture clearly teaches some have been regenerated as babies even before they have heard the name of Jesus uttered by a preacher. An example is John the Baptist, "For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, EVEN FROM HIS MOTHERS WOMB." (Luke 1:15)

Regernation comes before faith and conversion. Immediatly after being quickend and becoming a new creature faith is present.

Hellen Keller, after hearing the gospel for the first time declared,"I...know...him...I...know...him...I just didnt know his name:" This is the pattern in the Bible to. Take Annanias for example. Before Peter even preached the good news to him as a devout man, a just man, a praying man and one that feared God. (see Acts 10:1-4)

One does not seek God because he wants to get faith. One who doesnt have faith in God WOULDNT seek God. We seek God because we already have faith.


Brother Skandelon, do you believe Christ paid the sin debt for every human being?


Saved by grace,

Brother Joe
 

BrotherJoe

New Member
Brother Skandelon,

YOU: Read your bible and you will see that atonement has always been applied THROUGH FAITH. You have got the cart before the horse by trying to teach that a man is atoned for before the faith is present for which it can be applied. The sacrificial act may be accomplished but the application of that atonement is not applied until faith is evident

ME: Some would say it is you that has the "cart before the horse" in having faith preceed regeneration.

YOU:Yes, even in the Calvinistic system the gospel is merely an offer because the "elect" have not yet received that which must be applied through faith. Granted, you could argue that it is an offer they can't refuse (irresistable grace) but it is still an offer and therefore cannot be conclusively shown that it is not intended for all who hear it.

ME: The gospel doesnt bring eternal salvation, it simply puts light on it. "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" (2 Timothy 1:9-10)

Only one who has already been regenerated is the only one who will receive the gospel. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish (present tense) foolishness; but unto us which ARE SAVED (present tense) it is the power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18)

The gospel is a call. It is a call for God's children to worship and give glory to him in this present world for what he has done for them in redeeming them, not a call for eternal salvation. "Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from wrath through him.For if, WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement" (Romans 5:9-11)

Saved by grace,

Brother Joe
 
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