God uses means

[Earth Wind and Fire]

(Taken from)What Do Primitive Baptists Believe?

QUESTION

If preaching the gospel is not God's
ordained means of bringing eternal
salvation to the sinner, how then do you
explain I Corinthians 1:21 and other
passages like it?


ANSWER
I Corinthians 1:21 says, "For after that in the wisdom
of God the world by wisdom knew not
God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to sa
ve them that believe." Please notice
that the one saved by the gospel is
already
a believer! The text does not say, "to save them that
will believe." This would put it in the future tense.
It simply keeps it in the present tense by
saying, "them that believe." Let us go back and put th
ings in proper perspective. The Apostle
Paul states, "For the preaching of the cross is to them th
at perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians
1:18a). One who is a
present believer
is not the same as
them that perish
. Those to whom the
preaching of the cross is foolishness cannot and will not he
ar the gospel to their saving! "...but
unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it
is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the
wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of t
he prudent. Where is the wise? Where is
the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath no
t God made foolish the wisdom of this
world?" This flows so gently into the text (verse 21) u
ntil it would be foolish not to understand, "it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them
that believe." Until those who believe
the gospel is foolishness
are
regenerated (born again), they will
never
receive the gospel
message. How then can the preaching of the gospel be God
's ordained means of bringing
eternal salvation to the dead alien sinner? "For what
man knoweth the things of a man, save
the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of
God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of
God" (I Corinthians2:11). May God open the hearts of
those who are confused.

Pinoy, please handle it from here.....I gotta go to work!

Gods blessings

 

[Rippon]

Until those who believe
the gospel is foolishness
are
regenerated (born again), they will
never
receive the gospel
message. How then can the preaching of the gospel be God
's ordained means of bringing
eternal salvation to the dead alien sinner?

A lot of disordered thoughts in PB thinking.

God has ordained preaching to be a primary means of bringing spiritual life to one dead in trespasses and sin. I don't know why PBs are so against what God has established. It is fruitless for PBs to rail against God-ordained means such as preaching to bring the lost to the foot of the cross.

May God open the hearts of
those who are confused.

Indeed.

 

[pinoybaptist]

A lot of disordered thoughts in PB thinking.

You judged us without even knowing WHY we believe what we believe ?
Do you really know why we believe as we do ?

God has ordained preaching to be a primary means of bringing spiritual life to one dead in trespasses and sin.

The gospel confirms and reveals spiritual life already in the elect regenerate sinner, Rippon. It does not bring spiritual life to one dead in trespasses and sin, elect or unelect unregenerate.

2 Timothy 1:9-11 (KJV)

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
The same scripture, in three other versions.


The NIV - God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

The English Standard Version - God, 9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

The New American Standard -
God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

I don't know why PBs are so against what God has established.

And I don't know why you keep accusing us of being against what God established, when clearly, it is you and yours who have misrepresented down through the centuries what God established the gospel for.

And secondly, I don't know why Americans born and raised in their own English language could read their own language and give it a different meaning, if not altogether ignore or misinterprent what it is saying.

It is fruitless for PBs to rail against God-ordained means such as preaching to bring the lost to the foot of the cross.

lost eternally ? or lost gospelly.

I gave you ONE scripture. In almost all your posts, you ranted and railed about how we PB's are unscriptural and such short of accusing us of being children of satan here to corrupt this board.

Yet, for every Scripture we showed you, you have not pointed out how we are in error.

Take the above, for example, which clearly, in at least four translations, states that the gospel makes manifest life and immortality already in the already saved and called.

I am almost certain you will simply keep on ranting, and ignore how we misinterpreted that scripture.

 

[PreachTony]

(Taken from)What Do Primitive Baptists Believe?

QUESTION
If preaching the gospel is not God's ordained means of bringing eternal salvation to the sinner, how then do you explain I Corinthians 1:21 and other passages like it?

ANSWER
I Corinthians 1:21 says, "For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Please notice that the one saved by the gospel is already a believer! The text does not say, "to save them that will believe." This would put it in the future tense. It simply keeps it in the present tense by saying, "them that believe." Let us go back and put things in proper perspective. The Apostle Paul states, "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18a). One who is a present believer is not the same as them that perish. Those to whom the preaching of the cross is foolishness cannot and will not hear the gospel to their saving! "...but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" This flows so gently into the text (verse 21) until it would be foolish not to understand, "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." Until those who believe the gospel is foolishness are regenerated (born again), they will never receive the gospel message. How then can the preaching of the gospel be God's ordained means of bringing eternal salvation to the dead alien sinner? "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God" (I Corinthians2:11). May God open the hearts of those who are confused.


Pinoy, please handle it from here.....I gotta go to work!

Gods blessings

Please notice that the one saved by the gospel is already a believer!

How? How is this so? Paul, who we have all agreed wrote divinely inspired epistles, wrote:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Paul even says that it takes believing in order to call on Jesus for salvation, and that they cannot believe without hearing. He goes on to say they cannot hear about Jesus without a preacher. To say that a person was already a believer prior to being saved goes against the words Paul wrote.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

[/I]And I don't know why you keep accusing us of being against what God established, when clearly, it is you and yours who have misrepresented down through the centuries what God established the gospel for.

And secondly, I don't know why Americans born and raised in their own English language could read their own language and give it a different meaning, if not altogether ignore or misinterprent what it is saying.

:laugh::thumbs:

I gave you ONE scripture. In almost all your posts, you ranted and railed about how we PB's are unscriptural and such short of accusing us of being children of satan here to corrupt this board.

Yet, for every Scripture we showed you, you have not pointed out how we are in error.

YES! thanks for pointing that out!!!!:laugh:

I am almost certain you will simply keep on ranting, and ignore how we misinterpreted that scripture.

But of course....thats what he does!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

The gospel confirms and reveals spiritual life already in the elect regenerate sinner, Rippon. It does not bring spiritual life to one dead in trespasses and sin, elect or unelect unregenerate.

No it does not.
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross (the gospel) is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.[/FONT]
--If people are going to be saved it will be by the preaching of the gospel, and not by other means.
Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch. He was saved because Philip preached the gospel to him. The Philippian jailer was saved because Paul preached the gospel to him. Example after example given in the NT--people are saved when the gospel is preached.
The last command of Christ to the disciples was:
[FONT=&quot]Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.[/FONT]
--It must have been an important command. It is repeated in every gospel and in the Book of Acts.

We are to preach the gospel to all that are in the world, to every creature or person in all the nations of the world. That is our obligation--the very heart of missions.
--Since a finite mind (like yours and mine) cannot comprehend an infinite God, we cannot discern who the elect are. We must consider all that we meet as unsaved, unregenerate. God knows them that are his, but we don't. Therefore it is our obligation to preach the gospel to all. The Lord will give to those whom He WILL draw unto himself, not has already drawn.

All have sinned. All are born with a depraved nature. All need to be regenerated and saved; both actions happening simultaneously. The Ethiopian eunuch was both regenerated and saved after Philip preached to him. That is the reason the Lord sent Philip to him. His salvation was of utmost importance.
He had gone to Jerusalem to "worship" on the feast of Pentecost. He was a Jew from a foreign land. His worship was not that of a believer in Christ, but rather of an OT Jew that needed Christ.

You use catch phrases like "before the foundation of the world," "the decrees of God," "the elect," "before the beginning of time," etc. But you were not there. You don't have the mind of God. God created time. He created time for our benefit. He acts in time. This world was created "in time." It had a beginning, and it will have an end. And all who are saved or brought to Christ will be brought to Christ, not before that time, but during or within the boundaries of that time frame.
You do not have the right to go outside of the time frame that God has given you or mankind to live in. The Bible specifically warns against philosophical speculation, and you have built an entire doctrine on just that--philosophical speculation--working outside the boundaries of the time that God has given us.
God, in time, created all things.
God, in time, sent Christ into the world to die for the sins of mankind.
The Jews in time, rejected Christ.
There was a point in time where individuals came to Christ, such as Paul, the Ethiopian Eunuch, each one of the apostles, etc.
There is a time when each of us come to Christ, and it isn't in eternity past. God knows the time for he is omniscient. But we are regenerated and saved in some point in time. The preaching of the gospel is absolutely necessary for that to take place. It won't take place without it.

2 Timothy 1:9-11 (KJV)

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

Note that this is a pastoral epistle, Paul writing to Timothy--one saved man to another. Paul is already saved and so is Timothy. He has already been saved and called with a holy calling at the time of the writing of this epistle.

The same scripture, in three other versions.

The NIV - God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Every saved person is "saved and called."
That grace was given to Christ. He knew that he would die before the foundation of the world, and he knew he would die for you and me, and all that are in the world today. It is the grace that is in Christ.
Through the gospel, believing in the gospel we are given eternal life. Such simple scriptures as John 3:16 have taught this simple truth that we all believe in. By putting our faith in Christ he gives us spiritual life and eternal life (immortality). Every child that has heard the gospel understands this basic truth of the gospel message.

And I don't know why you keep accusing us of being against what God established, when clearly, it is you and yours who have misrepresented down through the centuries what God established the gospel for.

Why was the gospel given?
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:[/FONT]

The gospel is given in verses 3 and 4 in a very concise manner.
In verse 1 Paul says, "I declared unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which you received...by the which you are saved!
It is the gospel that saves.
They received the gospel that he preached to them, and by that same gospel they were saved. The means of salvation was the preaching of the gospel.
--There is no misrepresentation of our beliefs here, but a misrepresentation of the Bible on your part.

And secondly, I don't know why Americans born and raised in their own English language could read their own language and give it a different meaning, if not altogether ignore or misinterprent what it is saying.

If all your brothers and sisters in Christ on this board are warning that your interpretation may just be quite a ways off base, then don't you think you might consider that possibility?

lost eternally ? or lost gospelly.

As far as every Christian is concerned we are given a mandate to consider all as lost, eternally lost, and therefore to give to them the gospel that they might have the opportunity to be saved. We do not live outside the boundaries of time, and do not know the decrees of God or who are "the elect" in the mind of God. Neither is it our business.
Our business is to preach the gospel. God's business is to save those whom He will. Since you don't know "those whom He will" you still have an obligation to preach to all.

Take the above, for example, which clearly, in at least four translations, states that the gospel makes manifest life and immortality already in the already saved and called.

I am almost certain you will simply keep on ranting, and ignore how we misinterpreted that scripture.

A saved preacher talking to another saved preacher. Yes, the saved already are saved and have eternal life. They received it on the day they came to Christ, and not before that time. We live in time--specifically our time.

 

[righteousdude2]

Talk about PRIMITIVE?

This topic has surpassed the ten page maximum. The mods need to close it down ... before it gets older than the PBs the self. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[pinoybaptist]

No it does not.
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross (the gospel) is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.[/FONT]
--If people are going to be saved it will be by the preaching of the gospel, and not by other means.
Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch. He was saved because Philip preached the gospel to him. The Philippian jailer was saved because Paul preached the gospel to him. Example after example given in the NT--people are saved when the gospel is preached.
The last command of Christ to the disciples was:
[FONT=&quot]Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.[/FONT]
--It must have been an important command. It is repeated in every gospel and in the Book of Acts.

We are to preach the gospel to all that are in the world, to every creature or person in all the nations of the world. That is our obligation--the very heart of missions.
--Since a finite mind (like yours and mine) cannot comprehend an infinite God, we cannot discern who the elect are. We must consider all that we meet as unsaved, unregenerate. God knows them that are his, but we don't. Therefore it is our obligation to preach the gospel to all. The Lord will give to those whom He WILL draw unto himself, not has already drawn.

All have sinned. All are born with a depraved nature. All need to be regenerated and saved; both actions happening simultaneously. The Ethiopian eunuch was both regenerated and saved after Philip preached to him. That is the reason the Lord sent Philip to him. His salvation was of utmost importance.
He had gone to Jerusalem to "worship" on the feast of Pentecost. He was a Jew from a foreign land. His worship was not that of a believer in Christ, but rather of an OT Jew that needed Christ.

You use catch phrases like "before the foundation of the world," "the decrees of God," "the elect," "before the beginning of time," etc. But you were not there. You don't have the mind of God. God created time. He created time for our benefit. He acts in time. This world was created "in time." It had a beginning, and it will have an end. And all who are saved or brought to Christ will be brought to Christ, not before that time, but during or within the boundaries of that time frame.
You do not have the right to go outside of the time frame that God has given you or mankind to live in. The Bible specifically warns against philosophical speculation, and you have built an entire doctrine on just that--philosophical speculation--working outside the boundaries of the time that God has given us.
God, in time, created all things.
God, in time, sent Christ into the world to die for the sins of mankind.
The Jews in time, rejected Christ.
There was a point in time where individuals came to Christ, such as Paul, the Ethiopian Eunuch, each one of the apostles, etc.
There is a time when each of us come to Christ, and it isn't in eternity past. God knows the time for he is omniscient. But we are regenerated and saved in some point in time. The preaching of the gospel is absolutely necessary for that to take place. It won't take place without it.

Note that this is a pastoral epistle, Paul writing to Timothy--one saved man to another. Paul is already saved and so is Timothy. He has already been saved and called with a holy calling at the time of the writing of this epistle.

Every saved person is "saved and called."
That grace was given to Christ. He knew that he would die before the foundation of the world, and he knew he would die for you and me, and all that are in the world today. It is the grace that is in Christ.
Through the gospel, believing in the gospel we are given eternal life. Such simple scriptures as John 3:16 have taught this simple truth that we all believe in. By putting our faith in Christ he gives us spiritual life and eternal life (immortality). Every child that has heard the gospel understands this basic truth of the gospel message.
Why was the gospel given?
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:[/FONT]

The gospel is given in verses 3 and 4 in a very concise manner.
In verse 1 Paul says, "I declared unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which you received...by the which you are saved!
It is the gospel that saves.
They received the gospel that he preached to them, and by that same gospel they were saved. The means of salvation was the preaching of the gospel.
--There is no misrepresentation of our beliefs here, but a misrepresentation of the Bible on your part.
If all your brothers and sisters in Christ on this board are warning that your interpretation may just be quite a ways off base, then don't you think you might consider that possibility?
As far as every Christian is concerned we are given a mandate to consider all as lost, eternally lost, and therefore to give to them the gospel that they might have the opportunity to be saved. We do not live outside the boundaries of time, and do not know the decrees of God or who are "the elect" in the mind of God. Neither is it our business.
Our business is to preach the gospel. God's business is to save those whom He will. Since you don't know "those whom He will" you still have an obligation to preach to all.
A saved preacher talking to another saved preacher. Yes, the saved already are saved and have eternal life. They received it on the day they came to Christ, and not before that time. We live in time--specifically our time.

DHK:

Until you or the Calvinists prove that eternal salvation is solely what is meant every time "salvation" or words akin to it, like save and saved, is what is meant EVERY TIME Paul, Peter, John and other Bible writers mention it, all your opposition is hollow and misses right division of the word.