God wants all men to be saved

[Saved-By-Grace]

That's the point! Judas was present for the Passover mean but left before they celebrated the Lord's Supper!

Man following again? (And both are strong Calvinists. Will you accept their commentary on that subject as final?)

I mention Gill and Henry to show that there is no bias in what I say! I cannot be accused of quoting only from those who agree with me! A T Robertson has clearly demonstrated from the Greek, that Judas was present for the Lord's Supper. I know that some Reformed/Calvinists will argue against this, because it says something they do not like, not accept! Fact are facts! Either Luke, Gill, Henry, Robertson, and others are right, and you wrong, or they are all wrong!

 

[agedman]

So Luke, who was a first-class historian, was WRONG? Explain Luke's account. Here is what John Gill, Matthew Henry, two very strong Calvinists, and Dr A T Robertson, the Greek scholar say:

"From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over" (John Gill)

"it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. There have been those that have eaten bread with Christ and yet have betrayed him" (Matthew Henry)

"That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord's Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order." ( A T Robertson)

These are FACTS!

To what end?

What does it matter if Judas took or was excluded from that event?

Did it change anything that is significant?

Salvation was present, yet none were yet saved, for the Holy Spirit had not yet been given them. They were preserved and protected until the Holy Spirit came, and then they busted out of that shelter proclaiming.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

What in the world are you talking about?

After I posted some rather strong comments last November/December about your behavior towards myself here, I was banned for a month, and the posts deleted that are very relevant!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

To what end?

What does it matter if Judas took or was excluded from that event?

Did it change anything that is significant?

Salvation was present, yet none were yet saved, for the Holy Spirit had not yet been given them. They were preserved and protected until the Holy Spirit came, and then they busted out of that shelter proclaiming.

What does it matter? Is that the best you can do? Here we have Jesus Christ tell Judas, that His Death was also for HIM, and you simply dismiss it?

 

[Mr. Davis]

Here is what John Gill, Matthew Henry, two very strong Calvinists, and Dr A T Robertson, the Greek scholar say:

"From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over" (John Gill)

"it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. There have been those that have eaten bread with Christ and yet have betrayed him" (Matthew Henry)

"That betrayeth (tou paradidontos). Present active participle, actually engaged in doing it. The hand of Judas was resting on the table at the moment. It should be noted that Luke narrates the institution of the Lord's Supper before the exposure of Judas as the traitor while Mark and Matthew reverse this order." ( A T Robertson)

These are FACTS!

I guess you didn't read my edited/updated post!

Commentators are FALLIBLE! And they don't ALWAYS agree.

TC is a great deal more educated than you are and he is familiar
with more resources than you could ever hope to have access to!

 

[agedman]

What in the world are you talking about?

That is what I was wondering, too?!

At times I wonder if the moderators should be able to push a pause button on a thread so the participants can get a cup of coffee, relax, and then join again to seek truth.

 

[TCassidy]

At times I wonder if the moderators should be able to push a pause button on a thread so the participants can get a cup of coffee, relax, and then join again to seek truth.

We can.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

If possible, please provide the Greek word translated "you" in: "...but is patient toward you...".

"εὑμᾶς", which is supported by the following textual evidence:

"p72 B C P 048vid 056 0142 0156 81 88 181 322 323 326 945 1175 1241 1243 1735 1739 1877 1881 2127 2298 2344 al l592 l921 l1154 l1441 copbo arm geo WH NR CEI Riv TILC Nv NM A Ψ 33 436 614 630 1067 1292 1409 1505 1611 1852 2412 2464 2495 pc itar itc itdem itdiv itm itp itt itz vg syrph syrh copsa copbo(mss) eth Pelagius Augustine FastidiusSpeculum Fulgentius"

For "us" , which is very late in date

"ἡμᾶς] K L 049 104 330 451 629 2492 Byz Lect (l1178 omit εἰς) slav Ps-Oecumenius Theophylact ς ND Dio"

 

[agedman]

What does it matter? Is that the best you can do? Here we have Jesus Christ tell Judas, that His Death was also for HIM, and you simply dismiss it?

I’m not “dismissing” anything.

I am asking if the current contention over the event is worthy?

Does it change the outcome of any of the characters to appoint a specific time and who was present?

Nope. That Judas still of an evil greed “betrayed innocent blood” and went out to hang himself, his guts bursting against the side of that place, and dwells in eternity.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I guess you didn't read my edited/updated post!

Commentators are FALLIBLE! And they don't ALWAYS agree.

TC is a great deal more educated than you are and he is familiar
with more resources than you could ever hope to have access to!

WOW! Do you know me? or what I do and do not know? In case you did not know, John Gill, Matthew Henry and A T Robertson were first-class language scholars! You put too much faith in TC!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I’m not “dismissing” anything.

I am asking if the current contention over the event is worthy?

Does it change the outcome of any of the characters to appoint a specific time and who was present?

Nope. That Judas still of an evil greed “betrayed innocent blood” and went out to hang himself, his guts bursting against the side of that place, and dwells in eternity.

Still cannot get rid of the fact that Jesus died for him, who was not "elect"!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about Me, yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

The Greek is that they "are not willing", not that "they could not will" because of some external force like their will being "bound" by God!

Who was Jesus here speaking to? the Jews that wanted to murder Him, "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him" (verse 18). To these same Jews Jesus says, "I say these things so that YOU may be saved" (verse 33)! Clearly Jesus tells these Jews who were persecuting Him (verse 16), and wanted to MURDER Him, that He WANTED THEM SAVED! These are the words of God Incarnate, not some theologian with some warped doctrine! Deal with this.

 

[Jerome]

I found another thread where he explained it this way:

Did not Judas partake in the Last Supper?

No. He left, the supper was celebrated, then he returned.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I found another thread where he explained it this way:

more guess work!

 

[agedman]

WOW! Do you know me? or what I do and do not know? In case you did not know, John Gill, Matthew Henry and A T Robertson were first-class language scholars! You put too much faith in TC!

The reason I don’t use my name is that folks do not credit or discredit what I post upon who I am.

I would rather give words of truth and understanding, submitting myself to others with proven authority in the languages, then ever have to have some one state they believed something just because this old guy said it was the right way to believe.

It is enough a burden that I was a savage, a sinner of greater sin then even that infidel John Newton, yet we both are marvelously saved by God’s ever merciful Grace being “preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith (we) had long labored to destroy.“.

 

[TCassidy]

After I posted some rather strong comments last November/December about your behavior towards myself here, I was banned for a month, and the posts deleted that are very relevant!

I went back and reviewed the warnings you received. There were 4 in a 30 day period which resulted in an automatic temporary ban for breaking the forum rules.

2 of your posts were deleted, but I brought them up and they had nothing at all to do with the Lord's Supper, Judas, or anything else under discussion here. They were both screes directed at me and another forum member that were very un-Christlike.

I can still access them if you would like to read them.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I went back and reviewed the warnings you received. There were 4 in a 30 day period which resulted in an automatic temporary ban for breaking the forum rules.

2 of your posts were deleted, but I brought them up and they had nothing at all to do with the Lord's Supper, Judas, or anything else under discussion here. They were both screes directed at me an another forum member that were very un-Christlike.

I can still access them if you would like to read them.

don't worry

 

[agedman]

Still cannot get rid of the fact that Jesus died for him, who was not "elect"!

No, the blood was shed for all, but the death and resurrection was for a different purpose.

You seem to be stumbling upon this, and I must leave for a while.

Perhaps as you work through this and contemplate the matter, your thinking will be adjusted. But then, maybe not. It depends upon how you continue in the gathering of wisdom.

I must say, I was once were you are and thankful for very good patient scholars that caused me to consider some of what has been shared with you.

Bye for a bit.

 

[TCassidy]

Now, just for a cooling off period I am temporarily closing this thread. I may reopen it when everyone settles down a bit, or, I may not.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

After two hours of cooling off, I'm opening the thread. Remember, the final close time is 5:30 PM Pacific.