God Wants to Deliver Us from the Evil Instrumental Music of This Present Evil World

[JonC]

Yea, I guess we have a problem. I see the contemporary gospel music as a money market, not worship of God in Spirit and Truth.

You see it as you will, and worship as you will, but I'll have no part in it.

Actually it isn't. More money has been made on hymnals.

A church typically spends approximately $170 to $250 for licensing annually regardless of whether it is CWM or traditional hymns. The average cost for churches using hymnals is $6,000 which is replaced, on average, every 10 years.

Now, if you are talking about songwriters then yes. But you are being a bit of a hypocrite here. Those writing new hymns make a good profit as well.


But that does not mean Christians who sing "How Great is Our God" are not worshipping in spirit and truth. That is where your comments turn anti-Christian.

There was a time your arguments were levied against the hymns you love. People condembed them as common and worldly, even condemned the use of painos. And like those churches who used the hymns, churches who use contemporary music will continue to praise God despite accusers from within the faith.

Today the worship of those who condemned traditional hymns (when they were new) is all but forgotten. Their churches died long ago.

I suspect we will see the same, unfortunately, with churches condemning the Brethern for using contemporary music. My experience with such churches is many (if not most) are already on their way to the grave (or are there and have not yet realized it). They are physically here, but they are blind to the works of God occurring in the present.

Time is a funny like that.

 

[JonC]

I see the contemporary gospel music

I like Contemporary Worship Music for worship, and Contemporary Christian Music for driving to work (I also like the Grateful Dead for driving to work).

I am not too familiar with Contemporary Gospel Music. It is not a genre that appeals to me, although I assume the lyrics are good. I know some Southern Gospel groups (like Gold City).

 

[Ben1445]

Romans 14:14 is indirectly talking about music? Can you explain just exactly how that is true?

You didn’t bother to notice until I mentioned it.
I am still waiting for answers from you.
Which instruments are the embodiment of evil?

 

[Charlie24]

Actually it isn't. More money has been made on hymnals.

A church typically spends approximately $170 to $250 for licensing annually regardless of whether it is CWM or traditional hymns. The average cost for churches using hymnals is $6,000 which is replaced, on average, every 10 years.

Now, if you are talking about songwriters then yes. But you are being a bit of a hypocrite here. Those writing new hymns make a good profit as well.


But that does not mean Christians who sing "How Great is Our God" are not worshipping in spirit and truth. That is where your comments turn anti-Christian.

There was a time your arguments were levied against the hymns you love. People condembed them as common and worldly, even condemned the use of painos. And like those churches who used the hymns, churches who use contemporary music will continue to praise God despite accusers from within the faith.

Today the worship of those who condemned traditional hymns (when they were new) is all but forgotten. Their churches died long ago.

I suspect we will see the same, unfortunately, with churches condemning the Brethern for using contemporary music. My experience with such churches is many (if not most) are already on their way to the grave (or are there and have not yet realized it). They are physically here, but they are blind to the works of God occurring in the present.

Time is a funny like that.

I see this new style of music in the Church as comparable to a sermon I heard some years ago called "The New Cart."

It concerned the Ark of the Covenant being found abandoned in a field and when David learned of it he wanted to make a great ceremony in moving the Ark to the city.

David used " a new cart" to transport the Ark and it was a terrible mistake that cost a man his life. He failed to follow the Law of Moses in transporting the Ark. He forsook the old way for the new, and the Scripture says David became afraid of the Lord that day, and left the cart where it was and took counsel of the Lord in what to do. What he should have done in the beginning.

This new music is "The New Cart."

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You didn’t bother to notice until I mentioned it.
I am still waiting for answers from you.
Which instruments are the embodiment of evil?

Actually, no. I have studied that passage intensely for more than a decade. I am well aware of how people try to use that passage to support their views about music.

To claim that Romans 14:14 applies to instrumental music when music is not mentioned at all in the passage but deny that Galatians 1:3-5 applies to instrumental music because music is not mentioned at all in the passage would be faulty handling of Scripture.

I am still waiting for you to explain from Scripture how Romans 14:14 applies to instrumental music.

 

[JonC]

I see this new style of music in the Church as comparable to a sermon I heard some years ago called "The New Cart."

It concerned the Ark of the Covenant being found abandoned in a field and when David learned of it he wanted to make a great ceremony in moving the Ark to the city.

David used " a new cart" to transport the Ark and it was a terrible mistake that cost a man his life. He failed to follow the Law of Moses in transporting the Ark. He forsook the old way for the new, and the Scripture says David became afraid of the Lord that day, and left the cart where it was and took counsel of the Lord in what to do. What he should have done in the beginning.

This new music is "The New Cart."

The problem with that thinking is traditional hymns were once viewed as "the new cart" and looking back it is obvious those who viewed it that way were ultimately opposing the work of God regardless of their intentions.

I find it both safer and biblical not to judge Another's servants regarding their styles of worship.

It is safer because it keeps me from opposing Christ based on my own preferences or ideas (as those who condemned traditional hymns opposed Christ and you now oppose Christ). It is biblical because it is commanded (Rom 4).

 

[Charlie24]

The problem with that thinking is traditional hymns were once viewed as "the new cart" and looking back it is obvious those who viewed it that way were ultimately opposing the work of God regardless of their intentions.

I find it both safer and biblical not to judge Another's servants regarding their styles of worship.

It is safer because it keeps me from opposing Christ based on my own preferences or ideas (as those who condemned traditional hymns opposed Christ and you now oppose Christ). It is biblical because it is commanded (Rom 4).

We will have to add it to the list with the sin nature and psa.

 

[Ben1445]

Actually, no. I have studied that passage intensely for more than a decade. I am well aware of how people try to use that passage to support their views about music.

To claim that Romans 14:14 applies to instrumental music when music is not mentioned at all in the passage but deny that Galatians 1:3-5 applies to instrumental music because music is not mentioned at all in the passage would be faulty handling of Scripture.

I am still waiting for you to explain from Scripture how Romans 14:14 applies to instrumental music.

I’m still waiting for an answer to post 2.
When you tell me what we are talking about, it will be easier to discuss.

 

[Scarlett O.]

This whole thread is maddening. I can't tell if you all a joking or not about instruments, music, facial hair, etc.....

 

[Ben1445]

This whole thread is maddening. I can't tell if you all a joking or not about instruments, music, facial hair, etc.....

I have asked for clarification. I am yet to receive a reply. It is awfully vague on the part of the OP.
As far as I can tell, we are only still on a forum. I don’t think it is as if we will all greet each other at church on Sunday and ridicule anyone for what they said on the BB. It would be very helpful if the OP could clarify what he meant. It doesn’t make any difference to me other than knowing what we are discussing. If he wants to say that the noises made by shuffling through dry leaves is sinful I would help him avoid the leaves. I just would want him to not be upset with me for not being concerned about them for my own part.
But if we are discussing a topic, it certainly would be helpful for people to (politely) not hold anything back.

That wasn’t really all directed at you Scarlett. I just agree, and I got carried away.

 

[Charlie24]

This whole thread is maddening. I can't tell if you all a joking or not about instruments, music, facial hair, etc.....

One of the most well known schools in IFB ranks was Bob Jones University.

For decades they enforced a clean shaven rule that no one under 25 could have facial hair and haircuts were keep to a standard.

Over 25 a mustache was allowed but well trimmed to a standard.

That is now a thing of the past, BJU is a mere shadow of what it used to be.

This is extreme to some and senseless, but it was intended for separation from the things of the world.

 

[Ben1445]

One of the most well known schools in IFB ranks was Bob Jones University.

For decades they enforced a clean shaven rule that no one under 25 could have facial hair and haircuts were keep to a standard.

Over 25 a mustache was allowed but well trimmed to a standard.

That is now a thing of the past, BJU is a mere shadow of what it used to be.

This is extreme to some and senseless, but it was intended for separation from the things of the world.

Well, if you are trying to keep your student body from looking like a bunch of hippies, you tell them that you have standards of appearance and that they need to take showers.
When I was in college, there seemed to be announcements at least once a semester that bedding should be washed and showers taken.

 

[Charlie24]

Well, if you are trying to keep your student body from looking like a bunch of hippies, you tell them that you have standards of appearance and that they need to take showers.
When I was in college, there seemed to be announcements at least once a semester that bedding should be washed and showers taken.

Some IFB Churches still hold those standards set by BJU for those who serve in assistance during worship service.

 

[JonC]

We will have to add it to the list with the sin nature and psa.

Lol.....except I do not believe God rejects the worship of people who hold PSA or use hymns. So it is kinda different (I am not playing God).

Scripture directly addresses these differences. I think it is important to heed those words because they were given by God.

 

[Charlie24]

Lol.....except I do not believe God rejects the worship of people who hold PSA or use hymns. So it is kinda different (I am not playing God).

Scripture directly addresses these differences. I think it is important to heed those words because they were given by God.

Not much I can add except that we disagree.

That's common ground for us, right Jon?

 

[JonC]

Some IFB Churches still hold those standards set by BJU for those who serve in assistance during worship service.

@Charlie24

Serious question (not a jab) -

How is the growth of these churches (how is God using them for kingdom work) in your area?

We have plenty of IFB churches. Most are dead or dying. But there are exceptions here.

When I moved here we visited two IFB churches. Both were growing and appeared healthy.

The first we visited once. The service was great. They did dress casually (slacks and a nice shirt, some in jeans and a nice shirt). The music was Southern Gospel (yes, that "rock beat"...like The Gaithers). They were KJVO.

The second we visited several times. They used Contemporary Worship Music, required suits and dresses to participate in the ministry but not to be a member and attend and were KJVO. Good pastor. His father-in-law was a SBC pastor and he started as a youth pastor.

So I am not saying no healthy IFB churches exist in my area. But the ones that do are the exception and they have actively worked to "become all things to all people, that by all means they might save some" without compromising their doctrine. I do disagree with some of their doctrines so I would not be a member of either. But I would never discourage them and I praise God for His work in and through those churches.

How about your area?

 

[JonC]

Not much I can add except that we disagree.

That's common ground for us, right Jon?

Only on a few things. This, I think, is the only one I consider serious as it is not about doctrine but about condemning Christians based on your preferences.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

Serious question (not a jab) -

How is the growth of these churches (how is God using them for kingdom work) in your area?

We have plenty of IFB churches. Most are dead or dying. But there are exceptions here.

When I moved here we visited two IFB churches. Both were growing and appeared healthy.

The first we visited once. The service was great. They did dress casually (slacks and a nice shirt, some in jeans and a nice shirt). The music was Southern Gospel (yes, that "rock beat"...like The Gaithers). They were KJVO.

The second we visited several times. They used Contemporary Worship Music, required suits and dresses to participate in the ministry but not to be a member and attend and were KJVO. Good pastor. His father-in-law was a SBC pastor and he started as a youth pastor.

So I am not saying no healthy IFB churches exist in my area. But the ones that do are the exception and they have actively worked to "become all things to all people, that by all means they might save some" without compromising their doctrine. I do disagree with some of their doctrines so I would not be a member of either. But I would never discourage them and I praise God for His work in and through those churches.

How about your area?

We know from Scripture the Church is no better than its leadership. It's somewhat different here in that I can still see the effort to be separated from the world in music, preaching, and outreach to the lost.

The IBF Church I'm in now here near Charlotte is not the same as the one I was raised in on the NC coast.

It was more strict and more separated back then. But I will settle for what fundamentalism I've found here till I meet the Lord in person.

 

[atpollard]

We're filled with emptiness
Re-living our mistakes
Why are you so afraid?
We never were alone
Yeah!

We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone
Yeah!

Selfish anger now plagued with a thought
Our lives or nothing else
Hearts bleed from a lifetime of pain
We're reaching for empty dreams
Endless battle of death over life
Has allowed our lives to fade
So many times I've felt like a failure
Such distance brings hopelessness

We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone

Just an ounce of fear with a cost
Pushed us into a place of regret
We never thought we would cower
We're losing ground with integrity
Innocence can't hold a candle
To light the path we chose
Through the blood of a savior
Our death shall set us free

We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone

Yeah!
We're filled with emptiness
(Failure) Re-living our mistakes
(Why) Why are you so afraid?
(Alone) We never were alone
Yeah!
Yeah!

by War of Ages

(Yes Virginia,I am a trouble maker.)

 

[Charlie24]

We know from Scripture the Church is no better than its leadership. It's somewhat different here in that I can still see the effort to be separated from the world in music, preaching, and outreach to the lost.

The IBF Church I'm in now here near Charlotte is not the same as the one I was raised in on the NC coast.

It was more strict and more separated back then. But I will settle for what fundamentalism I've found here till I meet the Lord in person.

Jon, I can still see in my mind and heart when I was just a kid, Bob Jones Jr. standing in the pulpit with spit flying out of his mouth, holdling that old KJV Bible over his head proclaiming a crucified Christ and the world in need of Him.

I miss the old days when the Blood was preached with an honest heart for the lost of this world.