God will call His Elect to Salvation

[JohnDeereFan]

Post reported...................

Does anybody have any idea what this post was reported for?

 

[Benjamin]

Now, do you actually have an ARGUMENT or is this the best you can do?

Sorry, but demonstrating your argument to be mere fallacious rhetoric is about the best I got to offer.

I suppose I could further demonstrate how you continue to argue with fallacious Ad Hom to avoid the issue raised against your argument, but it’s pretty apparent to me you wouldn’t understand the direction I was trying to take you in and would simply be insulted and that would be your only focus if I continued to challenge the logic and critical thinking skills behind what you consider a reasonable way to debate.

 

[Luke2427]

Sorry, but demonstrating your argument to be mere fallacious rhetoric is about the best I got to offer.

But... you didn't. That's the thing. You didn't. Just saying you did doesn't make it so.

Keep trying. You'll get it one day.

I suppose I could further demonstrate how you continue to argue with fallacious Ad Hom

I'm glad you reference ad hominem. Now, look back at your post, and if you know beans from apple butter about what the term means, you'll see that post is full of ad hominem.

A freshman level class would help you here. It really would.

 

[Benjamin]

But... you didn't. That's the thing. You didn't. Just saying you did doesn't make it so.

If you say so. :laugh:

I'm glad you reference ad hominem.

I'll bet you are you. :laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

If you say so. :laugh:

Oh no!!! Not laughy faces!!

Powerful stuff there, Benji.

 

[Rippon]

Does anybody have any idea what this post was reported for?

Aw,why not? He's deep into his post reporting addiction now. Soon he'll be reporting on himself! LOL!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Aw,why not? He's deep into his post reporting addiction now. Soon he'll be reporting on himself! LOL!

On any other message board, it would be considered an abuse of the report system. But I guess the mods here aren't going to say anything.

I just think it's funny that he's reporting everybody for every trivial piece of nonsense, all the while, sending me unsolicited and taunting visitor messages.

 

[Yeshua1]

Then comes your cheer squad

:





To which I reply:




Luke, Luke, it gets tiring having to spell these things out for you, sigh. But, what’s pretty silly is that you missed my attack was on your fallacious reasoning, along with that others of your ilk would consider that reasoning of yours as valid/praiseworthy, and that I demonstrated how ridiculous your reasoning was by simply substituting “CHOICE” with “DETERMINISM” to validate my argument against your silly rhetorical fallacious argument by example.

But you either totally missed this point or purposely evaded it. You didn’t follow or respond to my argument about your reasoning at all, but came back with a response of going right for person who attacked your reasoning, starting with, I know “YOU” (More fallacy: Ad Hominem) while focusing on the emoticons thinking you might start a new argument by insulting me personally.

Then you offer some more nonsensical and illogical statement about determinism and conclude with saying it “my reasoning” is silly thereby further demonstrating that you have once again missed or are evading the point that this was YOUR REASONING with a simple word switch!! YOU SEE it is "applicable" in that my reasoning should be equally as meaningful as yours, and it is, WHICH MEANS it would have to be considered just as valid. BTW, in case you missed it, its not valid. WINK!

Luke, please don’t embarrass yourself further with demonstrations of criticizing your own reasoning, and do take a class on Basic Logic and Critical Thinking Skills so you are at least better at following the arguments whereby you further demonstrate your fallacious thinking when they are pointed to you, rather than just merely adding to the evidence against your poor critical thinking skills.

ALL that we need to do is to unleash the bible, as we have Jesus and the Apsotles on our side, and hopefully, their godly wisdom is sufficient for you!

 

[convicted1]

I don't care what side of the debate you're on...this one is hilarious!!!!!

 

[Iconoclast]

If you say so. :laugh:

Hey Benjamin...your philosophical bondage is still evident....but I like your emoticons:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Luke2427]

Hey Benjamin...your philosophical bondage is still evident....but I like your emoticons:thumbsup::thumbsup:

His problem is not philosophy. Good philosophy is the handmaiden of the Queen of the Sciences, theology.

The problem is that he does not know philosophy any better than he knows theology.

 

[Skandelon]

Actually, the way you just worded that "I" believe is not correct. I could be misreading you but here is my points in contrast to what I perceive your statement is saying:

While yes, we are SAVED apart from works, we will not come to eternal salvation apart from the persons choice to believe what God has said. In fact, scripture even tells us that it is by faith the propitiation is applied to them (Rom 3:25). Belief/Faith can never be called a work or effort (Rom 4:3-6). But at the same time, neither does any man come to such faith a part from the work of God in their life - but ALSO neither do they understand sin, righteous, and the judgment to come apart from that SAME work of God via the Holy Spirit.

Jesus makes the declaration in many places 'your faith' and Paul begs or pleads with the people to 'be reconciled' (meaning the person is the doer of the action), and these are just a small few pieces that contradict your above in which the person does not desire or chooses (will) belief. The reason? Because in all instances it is the person's desire and will that is being called to respond which is 'active' not 'passive'.

NOW – let me make 2 points here:

1. Faith does not save a person. It is not being offered to nor exchanged with God for salvation. It is simplythe trusting that all of what God has said and done - is true.

2.My second point is that the person will respond only in conjunction with and to the working of God. However they will not respond in belief apart from the work of God

Again, what is actually being stressed by Paul, Peter, Jesus, and others is that man will not come to faith of his own - meaning without outside and internal influence.

Here is an interesting question to ponder as well – Jesus even stated that some are intentionally kept from knowing the (more) truth because if they know the truth they would believe and be converted (John 12:40; Mar 4:11-12). Now granted these being spoken to and about are the religious leaders and people who have already rejected God from scripture and thus the Messiah He has sent.. but the statement is still an interesting one.

Very well stated. No one even touched the main points being made here...

 

[Skandelon]

4/5ths Arminians think that the words "faith" and "choice" are interchangeable. Of course they have no Bible for it

No bible for it?

"...choose you this day whom ye will serve..." Joshua 24:15

"The Lord said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?" Numbers 14:10-12

"...They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator..." Rom. 1:25

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." Matt. 23:37

"But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Rom. 10:21

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thess. 2:10​

Refusing to believe or exchanging truth in for lies is a choice, Luke. There are hundreds of verses just like these which clearly indicate this is the case. In fact, the word "TRUST" is often employed in scripture, which clearly connotes an idea of choice...in that you choose to place your trust in someone. I could list the dozen of text which speak of putting our trust in the Lord, but I suspect it would meet the same resistance.

 

[Benjamin]

Very well stated. No one even touched the main points being made here...

Actually, I was thinking about Allan saying faith is not being offered in exchange for salvation being followed by Luke’s attempt to exchange choice for faith in the same sense that Allan just finished clarifying wasn’t being offered (as salvation), which I figured was then cheered as a comeback to Allan’s statement when I decided to demonstrate how Luke’s offering a switch anyway could work both ways and meant absolutely nothing logically.

IOWs after Allan specifying the clear difference Luke went right ahead and built a strawman in the sense of offering choice to be salvific (as in having the power to save) and I thought to expose that his fallacious rhetoric didn’t add anything to argument at the same time – unless maybe some thought it also equally added the validity to my (borrowed) argument in which I switched determinism for faith – in which case I was wanting some of them cheers too.

But, it appears Luke didn’t see what I getting at.

So to clarify, for me it was the point I was hitting on but I saw no sense in trying to pin it back to Allan's careful explanation which was stomped on anyway with Luke's "logic". That's why I said I tire of having to break these things down, see I know he would dance around the issue I would try to pin. I decided instead to have some fun by exposing the Luke's reasoning for what it was and watching him deny that instead. Breaks up the day.

And now you have the rest of the story...

 

[Luke2427]

No bible for it?

"...choose you this day whom ye will serve..." Joshua 24:15

"The Lord said to Moses, “How long will these people treat me with contempt? How long will they refuse to believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have performed among them?" Numbers 14:10-12

"...They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator..." Rom. 1:25

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." Matt. 23:37

"But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.” Rom. 10:21

"They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." 2 Thess. 2:10​

Refusing to believe or exchanging truth in for lies is a choice, Luke. There are hundreds of verses just like these which clearly indicate this is the case. In fact, the word "TRUST" is often employed in scripture, which clearly connotes an idea of choice...in that you choose to place your trust in someone. I could list the dozen of text which speak of putting our trust in the Lord, but I suspect it would meet the same resistance.

So... before I deal with these passages, let me get this straight. You believe that faith is a choice, right? You believe that every time in the Bible faith is mentioned it is the result of choice, right?

 

[Skandelon]

So... before I deal with these passages, let me get this straight. You believe that faith is a choice, right? You believe that every time in the Bible faith is mentioned it is the result of choice, right?

Can we use the word "trust," Luke? The word "faith" has too many variants and often carries some baggage with it. For example, one might speak of the Christian Faith...but that has to do with doctrinal beliefs, not putting our trust in another person (which is what this discussion is about).

Do you trust your wife? Do you trust your friend? If so, is that a choice that you make? If so, how? What practical things do you do to trust your spouse or your friend? This puts our discussion in its proper context, I think. You may disagree, but I think the word 'trust' carries the best connotation for the concept of saving faith (man's response to God's revelation).

 

[Luke2427]

Can we use the word "trust," Luke? The word "faith" has too many variants and often carries some baggage with it. For example, one might speak of the Christian Faith...but that has to do with doctrinal beliefs, not putting our trust in another person (which is what this discussion is about).

Do you trust your wife? Do you trust your friend? If so, is that a choice that you make? If so, how? What practical things do you do to trust your spouse or your friend? This puts our discussion in its proper context, I think. You may disagree, but I think the word 'trust' carries the best connotation for the concept of saving faith (man's response to God's revelation).

You dont DO things to trust. You do things as the result of trust. I let my wife go out of town for a week without argument as a RESULT of the fact that I trust her.

When we speak of acts of faith or trust, we mean acts that RESULT from faith or trust.

Faith is something that happens to you.

You don't CHOOSE to believe in gravity. You are PERSUADED that gravity exists. You are not terrified each night that you will be hurled into outer space because you "trust" in gravity. You have FAITH in it. But you never CHOSE to have faith in it. It CAUSED you to believe in it. In fact, you cannot WILL yourself to BE terrified that you will be swept into outer space tonight. In other words, you cannot WILL yourself to STOP trusting it. It has overcome you with faith in itself. You have no choice BUT to trust it. And of course this is because you never had any choice BUT to trust it.

Faith is not a choice- ever.

 

[Benjamin]

Faith is something that happens to you.

You don't CHOOSE to believe in gravity. You are PERSUADED that gravity exists. You are not terrified each night that you will be hurled into outer space because you "trust" in gravity. You have FAITH in it. But you never CHOSE to have faith in it. It CAUSED you to believe in it. In fact, you cannot WILL yourself to BE terrified that you will be swept into outer space tonight. In other words, you cannot WILL yourself to STOP trusting it. It has overcome you with faith in itself. You have no choice BUT to trust it. And of course this is because you never had any choice BUT to trust it.

Faith is not a choice- ever.

Faith is something that happens to you when you love the truth which is revealed to you.

You are not determined to believe in love. You are PERSUADED or not that God's love exists. You are not terrified each night that you got to be that you will be denied God’s love because you "trust" in God’s loving promise. You have FAITH in it. You choose to have faith in it. He INFLUENCED you to believe in it. In fact, you are RESPONSIBLE to trust in the nature of your Creator's love so that you may receive the promise that keeps you safe. In other words, your RESPONSE WILL be judged in TRUTH. God has overcome all the lies in the world which deny faith in His love can be known in truth.

Faith is always a choice, as is love which knows trust – All God’s influences (PERSUATIONS) are clearly seen and understood whereby no one WILL have an excuse not to RESPOND freely. God knows the heart, His judgment WILL be true in regard to His loving promises upon which a genuine, loving offer of His mercy in grace has been given for all the volitional creatures He miraculously made. This judgment will be just and in truth based on their choices which freely brought them to faith or not according to the truly sufficient influences from the light God put into the world for every man.

 

[Skandelon]

You dont DO things to trust. You do things as the result of trust.

I agree, that is what I was meaning...I left out the word 'show,' I should have said 'what things do you do to show you trust your wife?'

Faith is something that happens to you.

Is trust something that happens to you? You grow to trust your wife which lead you to allow her to travel over the weekend. What 'happened' to you to make you trust your wife? You got to know her because she revealed herself to you, right? How is that different than with God? He reveals himself to us and we either put our trust in him or we trade the truth in for lies and choose not to trust him...just like with your relationship to your wife. You are over complicating this, IMHO.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allan

Originally Posted by Allan View Post
Actually, the way you just worded that "I" believe is not correct. I could be misreading you but here is my points in contrast to what I perceive your statement is saying:

While yes, we are SAVED apart from works, we will not come to eternal salvation apart from the persons choice to believe what God has said. In fact, scripture even tells us that it is by faith the propitiation is applied to them (Rom 3:25). Belief/Faith can never be called a work or effort (Rom 4:3-6). But at the same time, neither does any man come to such faith a part from the work of God in their life - but ALSO neither do they understand sin, righteous, and the judgment to come apart from that SAME work of God via the Holy Spirit.

Jesus makes the declaration in many places 'your faith' and Paul begs or pleads with the people to 'be reconciled' (meaning the person is the doer of the action), and these are just a small few pieces that contradict your above in which the person does not desire or chooses (will) belief. The reason? Because in all instances it is the person's desire and will that is being called to respond which is 'active' not 'passive'.

NOW – let me make 2 points here:

1. Faith does not save a person. It is not being offered to nor exchanged with God for salvation. It is simplythe trusting that all of what God has said and done - is true.

2.My second point is that the person will respond only in conjunction with and to the working of God. However they will not respond in belief apart from the work of God

Again, what is actually being stressed by Paul, Peter, Jesus, and others is that man will not come to faith of his own - meaning without outside and internal influence.

Here is an interesting question to ponder as well – Jesus even stated that some are intentionally kept from knowing the (more) truth because if they know the truth they would believe and be converted (John 12:40; Mar 4:11-12). Now granted these being spoken to and about are the religious leaders and people who have already rejected God from scripture and thus the Messiah He has sent.. but the statement is still an interesting one.

Good post Allan. you are careful to be accurate enough to show faith as the instrumentality...not the cause!