GODS 10 COMMANDMENTS

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Downsville:
Many have come in the name of Christ, saying we need not keep the 10 commandments.

Matt 24: 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many... 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Note that it is because INIQUITY abounding (sin, breaking commandments) the love grows cold, but it is those who ENDURE (keep the Commandments) that shall be saved.

Some will say we need keep 9 out of 10 but its more like 8 out of 10 that "they" practice to keep.I was raised a catholic(an alter boy)and was told on many a sunday to kneel before their standing images and pray.Theres 2 commandments broken right there.

According to the 'Catholic' version of the Commandments, (they changed them) they aren't doing anything wrong. Here's what the Bible says about that.

Matt 19: 16. And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Which Commandments?

18. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

A CLEAR reference to the TEN Commandments!

Some will arrogantly say that at this moment Jesus was making the Commandments shorter in some way, stating only 5 of the 10 Commandments and one of the 2 Greatest Commandments, but be not deceived.

1 Cor 6:9. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

That, my friend, is MORE than just the Ten Commandments!

There is no excuse for anyone to wilfully sin.

Heb 10:26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The bible clearly points out that in order to be saved we must practice to keep all 10 as they were given, including the sabbath and no graven images. In James the scriptures say if you practice to break 1, your breakin them all. You are a transgressor.

You are right, yet your statement is incomplete. It is not by our sin that we are lost, but by WILFUL disobedience. As the author of Hebrews put it 'sinning in SPITE of the Spirit of Grace'. You know the saying, when your young child stands in defiance of your command and does EXACTLY what you said not to 'just to spite you'?? Same thing here.

Like a certain blatent statement in the Sabbath thread 'I do not keep the Sabbath'. According to James they just said 'I am a murderer, idolator, etc'.

Is there anything in the scriptures that tell us we are no longer to keep the 10 commandments?

Nope. Not a word.

There is however hope for those of us who live in the strength that God and Jesus have offered us through the fruits of their Spirit.

We have Grace to cover us when we fail, and the Strength of the fruits of the Spirit, to live in that Grace, and keep God's Commandments.

Good questions by the way!

God Bless you in your search of Truth,
Kelly

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
1 John 2-3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


What are His commandments? Any way you answer, it goes back to the 10 Commandments.

tamborine lady,

Are you not aware that the Ten Commandments are a part of "the law",the Mosaic Covenant?

The Gentiles were never given the law in the first place:

" For when the Gentiles, which have not the law..."(Ro.2:14).

And when there were some from the Jerusalem church who attempted to place the Gentil believers under "the law" it was decided that they were not to be under "the law":

"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment...For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well"(Acts15:24,28,29).

It seemed "good to the Holy Spirit" that the Gentiles should not be made to "keep the law".

But here you are arguing that all believers should "keep the law".

May I ask you what authority you have in over-ruling the Holy Spirit?I can see no Scripture that ever even hints that the decision made by the Apostles was ever changed.In fact,Paul makes it as plain as possible that the Christian is "free" from "the Law" and is not under "the law".

"...for ye are not under the law,but under grace"(Ro.6:14).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Matt 19: 16. And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

A CLEAR reference to the TEN Commandments!

Kelly,

Too bad that you took the words of the Lord Jesus out of their context.Please allow me to finish what was said.

After the questioner left,the Lord Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

On hearing that,His disciples were astonished,and asked:

"Who,then,can be saved?"

The Lord answered,saying,"With men this is impossible,but with God all things are possible"(Mt.19:26).

And that mirrors the words of Paul when he speaks of the "deeds of the law",or "works of the law":

"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:11).

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Downsville]

Jerry
you wrote
The Gentiles were never given the law in the first place:
" For when the Gentiles, which have not the law..."(Ro.2:14).

You see, this is what i dont understand. You people who keep posting these one liners must have read the verses which are around them. Do youse ignore them?

ROMANS 2
[13] For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

[26] Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

[29] But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

ROMANS 3
[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[29] Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
[30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
[31] Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Let me ask you somethin Jerry. Do ya think the law of circumcision MIGHT be whats being talked about here? Which was given by the LAW of Moses and not about the 10 commandments.

 

[Me2]

Jerry,

everyone that God has given his seed to has received the law.

the law is part of man Jerry. It is an integral part of the spirit of Christ.

the law is called the law of LIFE AND DEATH.

its job is to define righteousness in man. It destroys the works of the flesh. It defines sin.

If the law within us convicts us. we know we are not yet "dead in christ". for the law hasnt brought us to the total recognition that we deserve death and that we must step up to the cross, die to self willed righteousness and be buried with christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

after spirit resurrection. we are no longer alive to the rediments to this world (life)

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

yet we are an integral part of Christ.

the law becomes our laws of life. the laws we live within. it becomes our life.

unless we are lawless?

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;

 

[Downsville]

Hi 3 Angels Mom
Glad to meet ya.

 

[Downsville]

Hi Me2
you wrote
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Ive always wondered about the above scripture. Do you think that after Christ begins His work in you and you continue to willfully sin(even in the spirit of the law)He will take you from this earth. A vessel of dishonor although saved to the kingdom. Just pickin your head.

 

[Downsville]

Jerry
Your doing it again
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:11).

Go through the whole book of Galatians Jerry
Circumcism mention 16 times
commandments mentioned not once

What do you think the book of Galatians is talking about Jerry?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Downsville:
Your doing it again
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:11).

Go through the whole book of Galatians Jerry
Circumcism mention 16 times
commandments mentioned not once

Downsville,

Galatians 3:11 is speaking about "the law".And the preceding verse makes it plain that "the law" at verse 11 does indeed include the Ten Commandments:

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith"(Gal.3:10,11).

And we can be sure that the Ten Commandments are a part of "the law".Here are the words of James:

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law"(Jms.2:10,11).

So even though the Ten Commandments are not mentioned,Paul does indeed speak about "all things that are written in the book of the law".And the Ten Commandments are indeed a part of the law.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Downsville:
You see, this is what i dont understand. You people who keep posting these one liners must have read the verses which are around them. Do youse ignore them?

ROMANS 2
[13] For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Downsville,

Yes,the doers of the law will indeed be justified.But if one breaks one of the commandments he is guilty of all (Jms.2:10,11).

If the Gentile keeps the law that is written in his heart,then he will "earn" life.But if he sins he will perish:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law"(Ro.2:12).

Later in the same discourse Paul says that no one will be justified by God according to their "works":

"for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"(Ro.3:9,10).

Let me ask you somethin Jerry. Do ya think the law of circumcision MIGHT be whats being talked about here? Which was given by the LAW of Moses and not about the 10 commandments.

There is no doubt that the term "the law" in the following verse is not in regard to circumcision:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).

It is the Ten Commandments that is referred to here,and that is because it is the Ten Commandments which gives one the "knowledge of sin":

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet"(Ro.7:7).

The sin of coveting is the "tenth commandment"(Ex.20:17).

So¨Paul is saying that by "the law" (the Ten Commandments) no man is justified before God.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Me2]

Nice post Jerry..

but you stopped short.

the laws design is to uncover AND MAGNIFY SIN.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

sin brings the "condemnation of death". I am a marked man thinking I am alive. yet Im waiting to physically die, face my judge and be condemned into death.

the identification of sin brings with it two choices. one to attempt to overcome my faults by my own strength or fall upon the mercy of God and pray that he takes the temptation away.

If I choose to attempt of my own strenth. the sin will surely overcome me again. Gods design of using the law is to bring his child through this method to completely die to their own self will. utterly helpless and begging for mercy or even escape of condemnation, via the life of another. namely the introduction of the resurrection power that God has shown his son. If we surrender completely. we will die trusting that our father like he has shown mercy to his begotten son, will likewise show us the same mercy.
This is called being baptised into water.

water here representing the antidiluvian flood. 100's of billions of people being killed under water. we likewise must accept death of our own self will by accepting death via baptism into the death with Christ. baptism into water.
within the depth os death. we are buried in the likeness of Christ. we are baptised into his body. into his righteousness. into his blood. and resurrected into newness of Life.

in this newness of Life. we are no l;onger tugged and pulled by the enmity or condemnation of failing at following the law. our deepest desire is to live for our father. to live to please Him. Our new nature is the law. and we happily are successfull at following its parameters. yet the law doenst save us. it becomes our day to day nature.

the law of life and death is just that. to get to christ, we must follow the law. if we are successfull at following its precepts. the law fails to serve its designed purpose. God will use it to kill our works of our carnal flesh.

and what are the works of the flesh. trying under our own power to live under its precepts. we will fail at following it. yet will we turn to God or will we defend our pride and try to live by the law. (trying and failing and LYING to self).
its simple. the law is designed to kill our old man. its will and bring us to the croos of Jesus.

To join Him in death.

Me2

 

[BobRyan]

Earlier Frank said:

The real question of importance should be is the old law binding upon men today in matters of faith.

To which Bob said:

Romans 7 says "yes"

Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Jerry said --
But Romans 7 says no such thing.Instead it speaks of the commandments as bring "death" and "sin":

Well clearly you have a problem with that text. Perhaps you will want to rethink your position based on a careful reading of the quote above from Romans 7.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jerry said

--
The Commandments are described as "the law of sin and death".That is why Paul calls the Ten Commandments "the ministration of death":

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones..."(2Cor.3:7).

Only apart from the New Covenant and in the context of wicked lost humanity.

The Law of God "in that context" it alive and living and authorotative and condemns the wicked.

But UNDER the New Covenant - that law that you seem to despise - is "Written on the tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:1-4 for it is the New Covenant promise of Heb 8 - in verity.

Therefore Paul can say "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our Faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!" Rom 3:31

There can be no doubt at all - you are simply in error in your statement above.


Christ says to His followers "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15

Paul says "Do we then abolis the Law of God through our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!"[/b] Rom 3:31

But Jerry says --

The Christian is "free" from the demands of the Ten Commandments despite those who would attempt to place us under the bondage of the law.We are "free" from the law,and that is why Paul can tell the Christian that "all things are lawful unto me"(1Cor.6:12;10:23).

Clearly - the word of Christ in John 14 and the statement of Paul in Romans 7, Romans 8:5-8, Romans 2:13-16, Eph 6:1-4 etc all show that you have grossly mis-interpreted that snippet from 1Cor 6 where adultery lying etc are all condemned EVEN in 1Cor 6.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Eric said --
As for Lev.19 vs. Gal.4, we've been through this on the other thread. I have shown what the original Hebrew and Greek mean (oh, but those are just excuses to conform to one's denominational teaching anyway, right? ). Lev. deals with magical practices ("times"). In Galatians, "times" or "seasons" are "appointed times", and this would include Israel's list of sacred festivals, and they did also have new moons ("months"). "Observe" is the word that conveys the sinfulness of the practice, but this has nothing to do with paganism, but rather the "evil intent" of trying to bring the new converts under bondage.
Paganism was their past, now they have come under influence of apostate Jews trying to bring them under the Law.

This was already refuted on the other thread.

There it was shown conclusively

#1. There is no precident in all of scripture for assing God "holy just and perfect law" Romans 7 - to the "weak elemental things of this world pertaining to that which is not god at all" Gal 4.

Only the "return" to those things of paganism - meets the real "problem" identified in Gal 4.

Basically in every letter Paul wrote consisting of more than 3 chapters - MORE than one problem was dealt with in the church. Galations is another good examples. This book deals with MORE than one problem as much as that frustrates some on this board.

Gal 4:
7 therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

8 however at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no Gods.

Clearly Paul addresses the gentile churches in Galatia and mentions that before becoming Christian they were worshipping false gods. The Hebrew nation-church by contrast was established by the one true God of creation who was to send his only son as messiah-Christ-savior was known by the Hebrews and Paul agrees to this in Romans 3:1-3 as well as his reference to Timothy's up-bringing.

9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Clearly Paul refers to going back to practices of the pagan system - returning to be enslaved by the pagan superstitious practices - again.

1. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) calls obedience to God’s Word – “Slavery”. Yet some Christians today prefer to think of it that way.
2. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) refers to God’s Word as “The weak and elemental things of this World” – yet some Christians do.
3. There is no place where Paul (or any Bible author) says that the Word of God is “worthless” and “pertaining to that “which by nature is not God”.

Rather – when it comes to abuses of the Word of God – Paul speaks of God’s Word as “Holy Just and Perfect” and as “condemning the sinner” – it is not the Law or the Word of God that he condemns – it is always the sinner that IT condemns. Yet some Christians today – want to so much to abolish Christ the Creator’s Law – that they are willing to turn the text of Gal 4 as it addresses the pagan lifestyle of the gentiles in Galatia and their practices – and attribute to God – the authoring of paganism..


10 you observe days and months and seasons and years.

NOTE: . This pagan practice is also condemned in the OT
Lev 19: 26 You shall not eat anything with the blood, nor observe times (KJV).

#1 The Greek term for "observe" in Gal 4 is NOT the term used in Romans 14 that is also translated "observe". Rather in the unique Gal 4 case it means" to "watch with evil intent" and refers to something like the astrology practices seen today.

Lev 19 describes it in other Bile translations as –
26 "`Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood; neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe omens.(KJ21)
26You shall not eat anything with the blood; neither shall you use magic, omens, or witchcraft [or predict events by horoscope or signs and lucky days].(AMP)

So “instead” of the Gal 4 text addressing the popular notion of “obeying God’s Word when you don’t really have to if you don’t feel like it” – the Gal 4 text is condemning “observe” as in the pagan practice “...to inspect alongside" (i.e. to note insidiously). Where "Insidious" can be to "intended to entrap or beguile", or "stealthily treacherous or deceitful.
#2. God's Word did not command His people to "observe seasons or months".
#3. Using another word for “observance” -- The "observances of days" is mentioned in Romans 14 and the "Condemnation" there is against anyone who would "condemn" the "observances".
Bending Gal 4 to point at the very practices employed in Romans 14 is a abusive example of eisegesis.
#4. In this case months and seasons are lumped in with days. The indication of a pagan system of practice is clearly - and repeatedly brought to view. Nothing here is ordained by God - established by God - given by God as a practice for God's people. It is utterly condemned as originating from pagan worship alone.
#5. Paul says this is “a return” and that they are “enslaved all over AGAIN” – these gentiles, these converted pagans – were never Jews. They are not returning to “salvation by keeping the Law of God” as something they “used to do”. This is simply “another” problem Paul is identifying among the Galatians that is in “Addition” to their problem with Judaizers

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Frank]

Bob:
Cain violated God's principle for the sanctity of life. Murder is a sin because it violates this principle. This is true in all dispensations of time. One could say the same for adultery, stealing etc. God's moral laws have never changed. This si not the subject of the discussion. The ten command,ments whihc are a part of the old law are not my authority for any matter of faith. The New testament of Christ is the authority by which men are to live. I do not steal, commit adultery or worship in vain because of the law of Christ ( I Cor. 9:21). The commandments of Christ ( Mat. 28:18-20) are sufficient for all our needs unitl the end of the world.

Although God tolerated polygamy and divorce under the old law, I do not practice them because Jesus commanded one man and one woman for life ( Mat. 19:1-9, I Cor. 7:39, II Cor. 11:2). I do not tithe, because the authority of Christ commands me to give as I have been prospered ( I Cor. 16:1,2). I assemble on the first day of the week because the new testament commands me to do so ( Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16:1,2, Acts 2:42,Hebrews 10:24,25).

God's moral laws have never changed. However, his will for man has changed. The old system of moses has been abolished as binding authority and has been superceded by the law of Christ ( John 1:17, Mat. 28:18-20).

By the way, cain broke the 6th commandement of the law, as you put it. Yet,it had not been given. Since you reasoned Abraham was not obligated to keep the law because of history, why argue Cain was obligated to do so? Abraham and Cain were not subject to the ten commandments. However, they were, and all men are, subject to God's moral laws, even Gentiles ( Romans 2:14).

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Frank:
[QB] Bob:
Cain violated God's principle for the sanctity of life. Murder is a sin because it violates this principle. This is true in all dispensations of time. One could say the same for adultery, stealing etc. God's moral laws have never changed. This si not the subject of the discussion. The ten command,ments whihc are a part of the old law are not my authority for any matter of faith.

Lets contrast your view of God's Law - with Paul's

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

So are you saying that in your rejection of the Law of God it is "sin in you" rejecting it?

Are you claiming that the quote that Paul gives in Romans 7 - from the 10 commandments is "error"?

What about When Paul says of that SAME Law

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our Faith? God Forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God"Rom 3:31

How will you bridge the gap between your rejection of God's Law and Paul's exaulting of it as "Holy Just and True"?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Well clearly you have a problem with that text. Perhaps you will want to rethink your position based on a careful reading of the quote above from Romans 7.

Bob,

I have no problem with the text.It is you who "evades" the points which I made.I said:

There can be no doubt that "the law of sin and death" is in reference to the Ten Commandments.And Paul could not possibly make himself any plainer when he says that the Christian is "free" from the law of sin and death:

" For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"(Ro.8:2,3).

The Christian is "free" from the demands of the Ten Commandments despite those who would attempt to place us under the bondage of the law.We are "free" from the law,and that is why Paul can tell the Christian that "all things are lawful unto me"(1Cor.6:12;10:23).

Now Bob I will ask you,and please do not continue to evade the question.Paulñ says that the Christian is free from the "law of sin and death".

Do you agree with Paul or not?

Next,do you believe that the term "the law of sin and death" is in regard to "the law" which includes the Ten Commandments?

Again,here are the words of Paul where He makes it plain that the "Ten Commandments" are indeed in reference to the "law of death and sin":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me"(Ro.7:9-11).

Here Paul is speaking abot the Ten Commandments,and there can be no doubt that his words here are speaking about "the law of sin and death".And Paul says that the CHristian is free of that law,the Ten Commandments.

So why do you continue to place the Christian under the bondage of the Ten Commandments when PAul makes it abudantly clear that we are free from the law?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Bob,

Earlier I said:

The Commandments are described as "the law of sin and death".That is why Paul calls the Ten Commandments "the ministration of death":

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones..."(2Cor.3:7).

In reply,you say:

Only apart from the New Covenant and in the context of wicked lost humanity.

The Law of God "in that context" it alive and living and authorotative and condemns the wicked.

Yes,Bob,the Law of God in that "context" is alive,but only if one keeps the whole law.But since no one keeps the whole law,it becomes the "ministration of death".

But UNDER the New Covenant - that law that you seem to despise..."

I do not despise the New Covenant.The New Covenant reveals the "Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" that has made us free from the law of sin and death.You evidently do not understand this "freedom" because you continue to attempt to place the Christian under the "law of sin and death".

- is "Written on the tablets of the human heart" 2Cor 3:1-4 for it is the New Covenant promise of Heb 8 - in verity.

Bob,if you read the words that you quote you will see that it is the "believer" who is written in our heart:

"Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men"(2Cor.3:2).

And it is not the Ten Commandments that this verse is in reference to,but instead "the Spirit of the Living God" (v.3).

Therefore Paul can say "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our Faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!" Rom 3:31

Yes,we establish the law of God by faith,but not by "law keeping".Instead,we are to put our thoughts on the Lord Jesus and in doing this we become like Him:

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord"(2Cor.3:18).

Law-keeping keeps out thoughts on ourselves.We are not to attempt to keep laws but instead we are to focus on the Lord.In that way we are changed to be like Him and our actions will mirror his.That is the way that the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us:

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death"(Ro.8:2).

Christ says to His followers "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15

Yes,but we are supposed to use our brain when it comes to which commandments of His we are to follow.Are we supposed to keep the following commandment of His?:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe"(Mt.23:2,3).

Of course not!But you would have Gentile believers to follow the Ten Commandmnents even though they were never given to the Gentiles to begin with--"...the GEntiles,who have not the law..."(Ro.2:14).

And even when some of those from the Jerusalem church attempted to place the Gentile believers under the law,it was decided that they should not have to keep the law.

But here you are saying that "commandments" which were never intended for the Gentiles must be kept by the Gentiles.

Paul says "Do we then abolis the Law of God through our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God!"[/b] Rom 3:31

Yes,but we not not establish the law of God by any other way that by becoming like the Lord Jesus--the "Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

A also said:

The Christian is "free" from the demands of the Ten Commandments despite those who would attempt to place us under the bondage of the law.We are "free" from the law,and that is why Paul can tell the Christian that "all things are lawful unto me"(1Cor.6:12;10:23).

To which you said:

Clearly - the word of Christ in John 14 and the statement of Paul in Romans 7, Romans 8:5-8, Romans 2:13-16, Eph 6:1-4 etc all show that you have grossly mis-interpreted that snippet from 1Cor 6 where adultery lying etc are all condemned EVEN in 1Cor 6.

Tell me what you think Paul means when he says that "all things are lawful" for him.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart:

Earlier I said:

The Commandments are described as "the law of sin and death".That is why Paul calls the Ten Commandments "the ministration of death":

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones..."(2Cor.3:7).

In reply I said:

Bob said --Only apart from the New Covenant and in the context of wicked lost humanity.

The Law of God "in that context" it is alive and living and authorotative and condemns the wicked.

Jerry responds --

Yes,Bob,the Law of God in that "context" is alive,but only if one keeps the whole law.But since no one keeps the whole law,it becomes the "ministration of death".

Then we agree about that "one case".

For the wicked - lost humanity - the Law of God continues to identify sin and to point out the fact that they are sinners. It was not "abolished 2000 years ago".

Instead of being "the dead Law of God" it continues today just as in the OT - pointing out sin.

Since we so seldem find agreement on this topic - lets explore it.

This Law - that defines sin and condemns sin and points out our need of a Savior - is described as follows in God's Word --

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

The "problem" is not "God's Holy Just and Righteous" law that "is Spiritual" that "defines Sin" that says "Do not Commit Adultery" (much as many Christians would like to believe that abolishing God's Law is the solution the those in rebellion against God).

Let us continue exploring "agreement".

Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Clearly this describes those who are NOT under the New Covenant.

(The New Covenant being described in Hebrews 8 as the miracle where God says "I will put My Laws into their MINDs and write them on their Heart" Heb 8:10 (LAWS - in the context of Jer 31:33).)

So also speaking of those NOT under the New Covenant being affected by the CONTINUING - and living and authorotative Law of God - we find Paul saying in Gal 3

9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "" CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.''
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "" THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.''
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "" HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.''
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, "" CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE''
...

17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
...
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Here again - "The Scripture" and "The Law" are equated - and "The Scripture has "shut up everyone under sin"

The purpose of the Law of God for those under the Old Covenant of "obey and live" is to show that ALL are under a curse.

As Paul says in Romans 3

8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "" Let us do evil that good may come''? Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, "" THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

...

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Instead of the "Abolished, defunct, terminated, useless Law of God" idea - Paul promotes the Holy Just and True - Law of God in Romans 7.

The Law of God remaining authorotative and defining sin in Romans 7 - and condemning all under the Old Covenant as being "sinners" - all both Jew and Greek - as deserving Hell according to the "LAw of God" that says (as quoted in Romans 7) Do not Commit Adultery".

Instead of the "dead defunct" Law of God - unnable to hold all mankind "Accountable" Paul says that it is "scripture" itself and that it binds all mankind - as sinners - as condemned - as needing salvation for sinful man can ONLY rebel against God (as Paul points out in Romans 3 above).

Is it any wonder that Paul refers to the “external Law” – on Tablets of stone and NOT written “on tablets of the human heart” not “placed on their minds and Written on their heart” Heb 8:10 as “The ministry of death” and condemnation in 2Cor 3?

2Cor 3
3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
..
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, b]not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills,[/b] but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

Ministry of death, the letter that still kills – still condemns all mankind as “sinners”, still “defines sin” still says “Thou shalt not commit adultery” Romans 7, James 2, Rom 13, Matt 5 and so we see that unit of 10 – continued – quoted from – authoritative OT, Gospels-pre-cross AND NT post Cross even Post Acts 2.


Having established this point of "agreement" lets try not to go back and "abolish it" too often.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Notice in Romans 7 the statement is made "The Law is Spiritual" and the problem identified is "but I have sin - I am a sinner".

This is the death of those arguments "the Law is NOT spiritual but I AM".

IN Christ,

Bob