God's desire

[AustinC]

Go for it. I am not an Arminian, but you can call me one if you like, although I do see that there view is more biblical. Look at your theology and try to be honest with yourself. You say God is sovereign and controls every thing but then say well not everything because He does not control mans sin. Pick a lane and stay in it.

I trust the bible but I do not trust the errant interpretation that you place on it.

I agree, you aren't an Arminian. Arminians have better theology than you do. You best fit the mode of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.

 

[KenH]

You say God is sovereign and controls every thing but then say well not everything because He does not control mans sin.

Have you already forgotten that I make no exceptions for ANYTHING as I acknowledge and rest in the fact that God is absolutely TOTALLY sovereign? We have discussed this before.

 

[Silverhair]

I agree, you aren't an Arminian. Arminians have better theology than you do. You best fit the mode of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism.

Well this just fits with all the other things that you have called me and as per usual I just ignore what you say.

The fact that you deny scripture tells me all I need to know about you. That you have to resort to the pejoratives just shows that you feel you have to strike out at me as a way of justifying your position.

 

[Silverhair]

Have you already forgotten that I make no exceptions for ANYTHING as I acknowledge and rest in the fact that God is absolutely TOTALLY sovereign? We have discussed this before.

Do you think that saying "absolutely TOTALLY sovereign" makes God more sovereign?

Yes we have and you still seem to think that God has to control all things or else He is not sovereign and yet when I point out that your view would make God responsible for all sin you disagree. Is He then not "absolutely TOTALLY sovereign"? You are going to have to pick a lane.

 

[AustinC]

Well this just fits with all the other things that you have called me and as per usual I just ignore what you say.

The fact that you deny scripture tells me all I need to know about you. That you have to resort to the pejoratives just shows that you feel you have to strike out at me as a way of justifying your position.

Your constant false statement that I "deny scripture" is a bold faced L...

If you listened to Michael Horton you would know that his description of therapeutic moral deism fits your theology like a glove.

 

[KenH]

yet when I point out that your view would make God responsible for all sin you disagree.

Have you forgotten that I do not back down from you on that? Have you forgotten the passage from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology, from the tope of page 92 through the first paragraph on page 94 - Systematic Theology (vincentcheung.com)?

 

[Silverhair]

Your constant false statement that I "deny scripture" is a bold faced L...

If you listened to Michael Horton you would know that his description of therapeutic moral deism fits your theology like a glove.

You keep coming up with these various names to attach to me and I would have to guess it makes your feel superior. But in reality it says much more about you than it does me. You continue to display a very un-Christian attitude. You really need to repent of this.

 

[Silverhair]

Have you forgotten that I do not back down from you on that? Have you forgotten the passage from Vincent Cheung's Systematic Theology, from the tope of page 92 through the first paragraph on page 94 - Systematic Theology (vincentcheung.com)?

You have obviously forgotten that, as I keep reminding you, that I do not care what your hero theologians say. If they deny the bible, which I would conclude they do, then why would I take the time to read or listen to them?

You seem to hold them in higher regard then you do the bible.

 

[KenH]

You have obviously forgotten that, as I keep reminding you, that I do not care what your hero theologians say. If they deny the bible, which I would conclude they do, then why would I take the time to read or listen to them?

You seem to hold them in higher regard then you do the bible.

So then you admit to bearing false witness against me since you know that I acknowledge that God is sovereign and that I do not back down one bit from acknowledging that God is the cause of ALL things?

Now, sir, let's put you into the theological dock: Who or what do you think in all of God's creation acts independently of God's sovereignty? Who or what, sir? You? Or Satan? Or the planet Mars? Or some random comet? Or a wolf in the wild? Does anyone or anything act independently of God's sovereignty? If you believe there is, then I challenge you to name it, sir. Name it.

 

[AustinC]

You keep coming up with these various names to attach to me and I would have to guess it makes your feel superior. But in reality it says much more about you than it does me. You continue to display a very un-Christian attitude. You really need to repent of this.

Hmmm...you use Calvin against me all the time, yet when I label you as a Therapeutic Moral Deist, you balk and call it un-Christian. Do you know what irony is, Silverhair, because this truly is irony.

Now, will you stop falling on your crutch of Calvin when we address scripture? Will you stop fibbing when you say I don't trust scripture? Or will you keep speaking falsely?

Many Christians today, in the US, are therapeutic moral deists. They acknowledge God as a source of comfort, but in their daily routines they trust in themselves and think of God as a passive bystander. In your conversation with Ken, you have attempted to make God less than Sovereign by claiming rogue molecules must exist or else that makes God the author of sin. You are using philosophy to come to your conclusion.

Now I, like Ken, would be interested to see your list of things that act independently of God's mighty hand. Please list them for us.

 

[Silverhair]

So then you admit to bearing false witness against me since you know that I acknowledge that God is sovereign and that I do not back down one bit from acknowledging that God is the cause of ALL things?

Now, sir, let's put you into the theological dock: Who or what do you think in all of God's creation acts independently of God's sovereignty? Who or what, sir? You? Or Satan? Or the planet Mars? Or some random comet? Or a wolf in the wild? Does anyone or anything act independently of God's sovereignty? If you believe there is, then I challenge you to name it, sir. Name it.

There is the problem you have Ken. You think God being sovereign means that He has to control all things, as in no one can think or do anything unless God has decreed it for them to do or think. But that is just your errant understanding. You are making sovereignty = divine determinism. For you God has to control all things or He is not God.
Even your own words "God is the cause of ALL things" shows this. Have you thought threw what you are saying, I don't think you have. If He, as you say, causes all things then He is responsible for everything that happens in this world. All the people that accept Christ and all those that reject Him. All the kind acts and all the hatred, the rapes, killings etc. Your theology by your own words has made God a moral monster.

What you fail to realize is that God is still sovereign even when man exercises his free will which God in His authority has given him. If you say man can not have a free will then you have just said that God is not sovereign.
Is God sovereign YES can He do whatever He wants YES. So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign?

God is sovereign but He does not need to be controlling. God is able and has given man a free will, does that mean we can overrule Him NO. What it means is that we can and He expects us to make choices and we will be held responsible for those choices. The major choice we are faced with is "How do you deal with my Son" do you accept Him as Lord or do you reject Him.

 

[Silverhair]

Hmmm...you use Calvin against me all the time, yet when I label you as a Therapeutic Moral Deist, you balk and call it un-Christian. Do you know what irony is, Silverhair, because this truly is irony.

Now, will you stop falling on your crutch of Calvin when we address scripture? Will you stop fibbing when you say I don't trust scripture? Or will you keep speaking falsely?

Many Christians today, in the US, are therapeutic moral deists. They acknowledge God as a source of comfort, but in their daily routines they trust in themselves and think of God as a passive bystander. In your conversation with Ken, you have attempted to make God less than Sovereign by claiming rogue molecules must exist or else that makes God the author of sin. You are using philosophy to come to your conclusion.

Now I, like Ken, would be interested to see your list of things that act independently of God's mighty hand. Please list them for us.

Austin are you a Calvinist, YES do you follow what Calvin has put forward, YES. How many pejoratives have you used in reference to me? From your point of view I must have a multiple personality in order to accommodate them all. When I said you are being un-Christian I was referring to your general attitude displayed on BB.

To save time just read the comment I just made to Ken on the same subject. Post # 111.

There is a vast difference between God being sovereign as the bible shows Him and the determinist God that you and Ken require. Logic and the bible are not on your side.

 

[KenH]

@Silverhair

1. Yes, I have thought what I wrote through.

2. Yes, God is responsible for ALL things that happen in the world.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

3. I have no doubt that you consider the Sovereign of all creation a "moral monster" as you mistakenly believe that you, a mere creature, created by the Potter, have the power to sit in judgment on the Potter and deem what He does "good" or "bad" based on your feelings and emotions.

4. You, sir, are a Deist. You believe that God created everything, lets man run wild over His creation, and then comes behind and does clean up work, much like the fella with the pan and broom walking behind the elephants in a parade. That, sir, is your vision of a god in your own mind, but it is not the God of the Bible.

5. The gospel is not an offer. Christ is not up for a vote like some cheap politician. The gospel is a declaration of what God has done to save His elect from this corrupt world in having imputed their sins to His Son to bear the penalty for them and having imputed His Son's perfect righteousness to His elect so that they can stand in His presence spotless and without blemish.

 

[Silverhair]

1. Yes, I have thought what I wrote through.

2. Yes, God is responsible for ALL things that happen in the world.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

3. I have no doubt that you consider the Sovereign of all creation a "moral monster" as you mistakenly believe that you, a mere creature, created by the Potter, have the power to sit in judgment on the Potter and deem what He does "good" or "bad" based on your feelings and emotions.

4. You, sir, are a Deist. You believe that God created everything, lets man run wild over His creation, and then comes behind and does clean up work, much like the fella with the pan and broom walking behind the elephants in a parade. That, sir, is your vision of a god in your own mind, but it is not the God of the Bible.

5. The gospel is not an offer. Christ is not up for a vote like some cheap politician. The gospel is a declaration of what God has done to save His elect from this corrupt world in having imputed their sins to His Son to bear the penalty for them and having imputed His Son's perfect righteousness to His elect so that they can stand in His presence spotless and without blemish.

Ken what you have said just shows you have zero understanding of what I believe or of scripture. You are so committed to your errant theology that you refuse to trust what the bible says. That is the hill you are willing to die on.

By your own words God is responsible for everything form the salvation of the lost to the rape of an innocent child. You have a serious misunderstanding of God. I truly feel sorry for you, the truth is there but you will not reach out to take hold of it rather your passively waiting for God to throw it at you.

 

[KenH]

Ken what you have said just shows you have zero understanding of what I believe or of scripture. You are so committed to your errant theology that you refuse to trust what the bible says. That is the hill you are willing to die on.

By your own words God is responsible for everything form the salvation of the lost to the rape of an innocent child. You have a serious misunderstanding of God. I truly feel sorry for you, the truth is there but you will not reach out to take hold of it rather your passively waiting for God to throw it at you.

You insist on your "free will" because you want to make salvation conditional on you. You do not trust God to save you.

 

[AustinC]

Austin are you a Calvinist, YES do you follow what Calvin has put forward, YES.

No. There are things that Calvin and I would not agree upon. Infant baptism being one of them. I have never followed Calvin, nor read more than a quote from the internet by Calvin. So, there can be no possible way that I follow Calvin.
I do, however, observe scripture and it seems that what I observe about God's Sovereignty is similar to what Calvin observed. Thus, the Bible does actually declare God's full Sovereignty.

How many pejoratives have you used in reference to me? From your point of view I must have a multiple personality in order to accommodate them all.

I have often pointed out your philosophy of Christianity that is hermeneutically unsound.

When I said you are being un-Christian I was referring to your general attitude displayed on BB.

You are free to judge me. Your accusations are your own.

To save time just read the comment I just made to Ken on the same subject. Post # 111.

You wrote:
What you fail to realize is that God is still sovereign even when man exercises his free will which God in His authority has given him. If you say man can not have a free will then you have just said that God is not sovereign.
Is God sovereign YES can He do whatever He wants YES. So If both of the forgoing statements are true then the question becomes why can this sovereign God not grant His creatures free will? He can give human beings free will if He wants to. If He’s not allowed to, then how is He sovereign?"

Here you share your philosophy. There is no scripture or any expression by God to back you up. It is your own mind trying to put God into a box where you can still make the decisions outside of God's ordination. You show us your humanistic philosophy here and nothing more.

There is a vast difference between God being sovereign as the bible shows Him and the determinist God that you and Ken require. Logic and the bible are not on your side.

The Bible is clearly on Ken's side and I agree with scripture. Certainly, according to your humanistic logic, you think you live outside of God's determination over your life. You fail to realize that God has ordained your confusion and incapacity to humble yourself under the mighty hand of God.

*Micah 6:6-8*

“With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Since you demand equality with God in decision making, it is clear that walking humbly with your God is a stumbling block which God has given to you. Your philosophy demands you be in charge.

 

[KenH]

@Austin One small change is warranted to what you wrote, my friend, if I am to be mentioned.

It should be "Clearly Ken is on the Bible's side".

 

[Van]

Does God desire all people (1 Timothy 2:4) to be saved unconditionally, or only according to His redemption plan?

Since all people are not saved, for example the person headed for swift destruction in 2 Peter 2:1, then God's desire is not unconditionally applied, but conditionally applied, to those whose faith in Christ He credits as righteous faith.

In order to make this possibility of salvation available to all humanity, Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6.)

 

[JonC]

Does God desire all people (1 Timothy 2:4) to be saved unconditionally, or only according to His redemption plan?

Since all people are not saved, for example the person headed for swift destruction in 2 Peter 2:1, then God's desire is not unconditionally applied, but conditionally applied, to those whose faith in Christ He credits as righteous faith.

In order to make this possibility of salvation available to all humanity, Christ died as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6.)

I'd say God desires all people to be saved. That said, God's gift of salvation is conditioned (not earned, but conditioned).

The reason being that the idea God desires some to be evil redefines God from being the God of the Bible into something more akin to the Adversary.

 

[Van]

I'd say God desires all people to be saved. That said, God's gift of salvation is conditioned (not earned, but conditioned).

The reason being that the idea God desires some to be evil redefines God from being the God of the Bible into something more akin to the Adversary.

Useful insight I had not considered. Thanks.