God's Effectual Call?

BUMP

The post I put on page 4 has your defining 'call' as biblical.

 

And if you do not want the traditional and distinctive biblical term, then you have the burden of proof.

 

If there are so many "churches" today and so many "called" pastors then why have so few in those congregations ever been discipled?

 

Hey gb,

That is a good question. However, before it can be properly addressed we must first demonstrate (from our final authority the Bible) if it is even vaild to apply the term "called" to a pastor. </font>[/QUOTE]If for medical or other reasons a pastor quits pastoring a church is he no longer called? If a pastor cannot get another church to pastor after he leaves a church run by the disobedient is he no longer called?

Is that calling conditional or unconditional?

I see many cases whre believers are called by God. But I see none where they are called to pastor. I see that as a desire from the man.

 

There is no logic in what you are asking. The biblical call is clear.

You called it the biblical call.

I listed dozens of examples.

If you cannot agree with the definitions that are used at your seminary, how can you expect anyone to understand what you are fishing for?

 

I suggest that you seek out a biblical authority to whom you must answer and ask him.

I would suggest the president of your seminary.

I pray that you will not pull out a logic book, faulty definitions, and a less than ideal understanding of logic and scriptures when you chat with him.

 

To be clear on my side, and so that I don't send you to your president without a clear background:

Christ commissioned (sent) the Apostles to commission others (make disciples). (Matt 28: 19)

Paul was called (appointed) to be an apostle. (Rom 1: 1 & other letters)

Paul appointed others to the ministry. Acts 14: 23)

Paul commissioned Timothy and Titus to carry on the discipled succession and outlined the process. He also warned against laying on hands too quickly. (References given previously in Timothy and Titus)

Paul said that God sent His ministers, to build up the Church. (Eph 4:11)

 

To be clear on my side, and so that I don't send you to your president without a clear background:

Christ commissioned (sent) the Apostles to commission others (make disciples). (Matt 28: 19)

Paul was called (appointed) to be an apostle. (Rom 1: 1 & other letters)

Paul appointed (commissioned) others to the ministry. And Paul expected this process to continue. (Acts 14: 23; Eph 4: 11; 2 Tim 2: 2)

Paul commissioned Timothy and Titus to carry on the succession and outlined the process. He also warned against laying on hands too quickly. (1 Tim 5: 21 & 22; 2 Tim 4: 1 - 5; Titus 1: 5 - 9; 2 Pet 1: 10)

Paul said that God sent His ministers, to build up the Church. (Eph 4:11)

 

While I was a student at SWBTS there were a few professors who believe as you do. They continued to challenege the ignorance of many of the leaderrs in the SBC and were later labelled as liberals. The fact is that the leaders were much closer to liberalism because of the political mindset and their lack of integrity with scripture.

I think it is a ploy by many among Baptists in leadership to recruit people to churches. If their work was so well done why are there so many failures. Half of the students who start seminary graduare and few of thoise after five to ten years are no longer pastoring. By that standard the wworlkd has a better chance of definig calling.

My personal belief is that so many churches are dying and sadly stagnant and filthy but yet the plea goes out for pastors to lead those churches that really are happpy eating pastors alive. Why should a pastor ever be enticed to a chruch that is not serious about walking with God. Until they get serious I believe we are doing them a disservice and the man who comes a disservice. When they start having a hard time getting a pastor then maybe they will look at why and get down to business with God.

The first church I pastored was a replant. Ten people were left and they decided to do whatever it took to get it going again. They did too. However they did not realize the impact of their decision. They had never worked that hard. But they let me lead and we made it with God's incredible, miraculous help. I never saw a chruch get to the point wheer it prayed so much for incredible things. They challenged each other to walk with God and pray for their needs as a church. Today it is doing very well and is a healthy church.

 

gb

Many that claim to be called are not called.

 

Does God ever call a person who does not want to pastor in a church? I believe we are already seeing more and more men and women who are discipling others while the number of pastors is on the decrease. Who is called? Those who makes disciples or those who "pastor" a church? The last survey they did a few years ago at SWBTS revealed that 2/3 of the theology students did not want to be a pastor but either work in or start a parachurch organization. Are the 2/3 called? Or are only the 1/3 called?

So often we say that the reason why a pastor does not stay is because he is not called. I believe the laziness and easy believeism among so many leaders in our churches today demonstrates they do not want a man who knows Jesus and is called to endure. They will not even let a man endure. So often when he calls them to walk with God by stretching them in doing practical ministry they want him to leave. He makes them uncomfortable. I have heard every excuse in the book why deacons cannot come with me to do ministry. Amazing how many golf games or family outings come up at the same time. When a man starts getting into the community it means he will encounter others and he will have to identify himself as someone who is a believer. I have had deacons tell me not to call on them to pray in church. I have had them get mad at me when I asked them to come with me to do ministry. I have seen deacons shake when I ask them to go knock on doors with me in the community where they live. All of them were changed by the challenge. Somne of them gained in strength and boldnes in a few hours with me. While some were hardened by the challenge. Some gave me a lot of trouble. None stayed in the same place spiritually.

 

All are called to follow Jesus.

On the basis of results how many churches do you know personally who are actively making disciples who reproduce themselves? What percentage of the people in your denomination can claim someone has discipled them in such a way that they can disiple someone else?

After you have answered the previous two questions what does that say about God's calling on the leaders of those churches?

I believe if we had that kind of effectiveness among the students in secular society we would have a revolt by the taxpayers.

 

[ October 08, 2005, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: El_Guero ]