God's Effectual Call?

[El_Guero]

BUMP

The post I put on page 4 has your defining 'call' as biblical.

I do believe that we (as Evangelicals) use the term “called” way too loosely .... Evangelicals ... default to a traditional view and use the distinctive biblical term—called.

 

[El_Guero]

And if you do not want the traditional and distinctive biblical term, then you have the burden of proof.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
We have a conflict in definitions.

I'd say that we have no definition. I did not provide the definition of the term "called." I simply pointed out that there is a traditional view that uses such a term. I did not say what the "call" is, or how one knows when one receives such a "call". Thus, if you would please, for the sake of the discussion, define exactly what you mean when you use the term "called," or God's effectual call"?

You defined the traditional definition.

Please quote from my post where I defined the traditional view of "called."

I am merely using the definition as it is traditionally understood.

Please state that traditional view of "called" in an articulate manner so that we can get beyond asking one anonther the same questions over and over.

If you want change, prove it.

No idea what you are trying to say here.

Show me scripture where more than 3 exceptions exist (men of God who were not appointed, called, or sent)?

I think here is where the difficultly of you not providing your own definition for what you mean when you use the term "called" is most clear. In the above quote you seem to want to imply that being appointed by man, say Titus, or sent by a church, say the one in Jerusalem, equates to being "called" by God or "God's effectual call on one's life to ministry. Does the Scripture bear out such a definition where appointed equates to "called by God," or sent equates to "called by God"?

I have already acknowledged that the Bible records that God did supernaturally speak to specific individuals for specific purposes during Bible times. However, I also asserted that such supernatural methods have not been His normal methods for dealing with believers in any age (by quoting Charles R. Smith see below).

One of the most frequent causes of confusion with regard to God’s will is the common failure to recognize the distinctiveness of God’s dealings with those to whom and by whom He chose to reveal Himself in the sacred Scriptures. You are not a Moses! Nor are you a Joshua, an Abraham, Ezekiel, Daniel, Matthew, John or Paul! You are not to expect the kind of revelation they received. God’s methods in dealing with them have not been His normal methods of dealing with believers in any age.

[ October 08, 2005, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
BUMP

The post I put on page 4 has your defining 'call' as biblical.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I do believe that we (as Evangelicals) use the term “called” way too loosely .... Evangelicals ... default to a traditional view and use the distinctive biblical term—called.

</font>[/QUOTE]That quoted statement does not in any way define what the traditional view is, what its use of the term "call" means, or how one knows when ones receives such a "call."

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
BUMP

The post I put on page 4 has your defining 'call' as biblical.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I do believe that we (as Evangelicals) use the term “called” way too loosely .... Evangelicals ... default to a traditional view and use the distinctive biblical term—called.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes... But when discussing the Bible we must stick to the context, context, context...

The term "call" is biblical. I showed that it is used in three basic theological ways:

The Greek verb kaleo, meaning “to call,” is found 148 times in the NT (with an additional 70 uses of related terms from the same root).

There are three theological usages of the word:

1. In the gospels Jesus frequently uses the word in the sense of summoning or inviting sinners (Matt. 9:13) to come to repentance, faith, salvation, and service.

2. Paul applied the term to a more restricted doctrinal use to describe God’s gracious work within a sinner whereby He effectively brings that person to faith and salvation (effective or efficacious grace in contrast to the common grace given to all mankind but rejected by many). This use of “call” was important in Paul’s development of the doctrine of sovereign grace and election (Rom. 8:28-30).

3. The call to a specific function or office. This use of the term occurs three times in the NT: (A) God’s call of Paul to be an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1); (B) God’s call of Barnabas and Saul to be the Church’s first missionaries (Acts 13:2); and (C) God’s call to Paul and his companions to take the gospel to Macedonia (Acts 16:9-10).

Clearly, the first two uses of the term “called” are not what we have in mind with respect to the traditional view regarding our life’s-work. It is this third use of the term “called” (to a specific function or office) where we want to focus our examination. A vigilant assessment of these examples along with the rest of the NT exposes the fact that they are the exception rather than the rule.

In his book entitled, Can you Know God’s Will for Your Life? Charles R. Smith states:

One of the most frequent causes of confusion with regard to God’s will is the common failure to recognize the distinctiveness of God’s dealings with those to whom and by whom He chose to reveal Himself in the sacred Scriptures. You are not a Moses! Nor are you a Joshua, an Abraham, Ezekiel, Daniel, Matthew, John or Paul! You are not to expect the kind of revelation they received. God’s methods in dealing with them have not been His normal methods of dealing with believers in any age.

None of these three basic theological (and biblical) uses noted above implies that "God effectually calls" all those who would serve in ministry (in the way that you seem to want to use the term "called").

[ October 08, 2005, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[gb93433]

If there are so many "churches" today and so many "called" pastors then why have so few in those congregations ever been discipled?

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
And if you do not want the traditional and distinctive biblical term, then you have the burden of proof.

I have stated that the idea that "God effectually calls" all who would serve in the ministry today is not found in the Bible. Likewise, I have stated that no passage of Scripture provides a requirement of such a "call" for those who would serve in the ministry today. Then I provided quotes and sources from noted Bible Scholars who hold that same position to back up my claim.

Now if you seriously want to continue the discussion please provide a clear and articulate definition of what you mean when you use the terms "call," or "called," or the phrase "God's effectual call on your life to ministry." Then please provide Scripture that supports your definition(s). If you cannot or will not honor this simple request our discussion can go no further.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by gb93433:
If there are so many "churches" today and so many "called" pastors then why have so few in those congregations ever been discipled?

Hey gb,

That is a good question. However, before it can be properly addressed we must first demonstrate (from our final authority the Bible) if it is even vaild to apply the term "called" to a pastor.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Did I? How so?

Let me begin by stating that I do not believe that it is impossible for God (or not within His ability) to “call” someone into ministry. However, I do believe that we (as Evangelicals) use the term “called” way too loosely .... Evangelicals ... default to a traditional view and use the distinctive biblical term—called.

I said that we use the term way too loosely without understanding what the Bible has to say about those who serve in ministry. I never defined what the traditional view of "called" says, or what the traditional view of "called" means when it is used, or even how one knows when or if one has received such a "call."

provide a definition of the term "called" that you are using and Scripture refereneces to support the idea

Did that ... so did you </font>[/QUOTE]Where did you provide a definition of what you mean when you use the term "called" and where did you provide Scripture (with solid exegesis) that supports the idea? I know you quoted a couple of passages. However, in no way did they support your use of the term "called" because you imported your own meaning onto a text that never used the word kaleo, meaning "called," (eisegesis).

[ December 10, 2005, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
If there are so many "churches" today and so many "called" pastors then why have so few in those congregations ever been discipled?

Hey gb,

That is a good question. However, before it can be properly addressed we must first demonstrate (from our final authority the Bible) if it is even vaild to apply the term "called" to a pastor. </font>[/QUOTE]If for medical or other reasons a pastor quits pastoring a church is he no longer called? If a pastor cannot get another church to pastor after he leaves a church run by the disobedient is he no longer called?

Is that calling conditional or unconditional?

I see many cases whre believers are called by God. But I see none where they are called to pastor. I see that as a desire from the man.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gb93433:
If there are so many "churches" today and so many "called" pastors then why have so few in those congregations ever been discipled?

Hey gb,

That is a good question. However, before it can be properly addressed we must first demonstrate (from our final authority the Bible) if it is even vaild to apply the term "called" to a pastor. </font>[/QUOTE]If for medical or other reasons a pastor quits pastoring a church is he no longer called? If a pastor cannot get another church to pastor after he leaves a church run by the disobedient is he no longer called?

Is that calling conditional or unconditional?

I see many cases whre believers are called by God. But I see none where they are called to pastor. I see that as a desire from the man. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you. However, there are those who insist that men are "called" to be pastors, or missionaries, etc. Yet, no one who holds that view has yet been able to demonstrate from the Scriptures, using solid exegesis, that their view (however they define it) is valid and biblical.

 

[El_Guero]

There is no logic in what you are asking. The biblical call is clear.

You called it the biblical call.

I listed dozens of examples.

If you cannot agree with the definitions that are used at your seminary, how can you expect anyone to understand what you are fishing for?

 

[El_Guero]

I suggest that you seek out a biblical authority to whom you must answer and ask him.

I would suggest the president of your seminary.

I pray that you will not pull out a logic book, faulty definitions, and a less than ideal understanding of logic and scriptures when you chat with him.

 

[El_Guero]

To be clear on my side, and so that I don't send you to your president without a clear background:

Christ commissioned (sent) the Apostles to commission others (make disciples). (Matt 28: 19)

Paul was called (appointed) to be an apostle. (Rom 1: 1 & other letters)

Paul appointed others to the ministry. Acts 14: 23)

Paul commissioned Timothy and Titus to carry on the discipled succession and outlined the process. He also warned against laying on hands too quickly. (References given previously in Timothy and Titus)

Paul said that God sent His ministers, to build up the Church. (Eph 4:11)

 

[El_Guero]

To be clear on my side, and so that I don't send you to your president without a clear background:

Christ commissioned (sent) the Apostles to commission others (make disciples). (Matt 28: 19)

Paul was called (appointed) to be an apostle. (Rom 1: 1 & other letters)

Paul appointed (commissioned) others to the ministry. And Paul expected this process to continue. (Acts 14: 23; Eph 4: 11; 2 Tim 2: 2)

Paul commissioned Timothy and Titus to carry on the succession and outlined the process. He also warned against laying on hands too quickly. (1 Tim 5: 21 & 22; 2 Tim 4: 1 - 5; Titus 1: 5 - 9; 2 Pet 1: 10)

Paul said that God sent His ministers, to build up the Church. (Eph 4:11)

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
I agree with you. However, there are those who insist that men are "called" to be pastors, or missionaries, etc. Yet, no one who holds that view has yet been able to demonstrate from the Scriptures, using solid exegesis, that their view (however they define it) is valid and biblical.

While I was a student at SWBTS there were a few professors who believe as you do. They continued to challenege the ignorance of many of the leaderrs in the SBC and were later labelled as liberals. The fact is that the leaders were much closer to liberalism because of the political mindset and their lack of integrity with scripture.

I think it is a ploy by many among Baptists in leadership to recruit people to churches. If their work was so well done why are there so many failures. Half of the students who start seminary graduare and few of thoise after five to ten years are no longer pastoring. By that standard the wworlkd has a better chance of definig calling.

My personal belief is that so many churches are dying and sadly stagnant and filthy but yet the plea goes out for pastors to lead those churches that really are happpy eating pastors alive. Why should a pastor ever be enticed to a chruch that is not serious about walking with God. Until they get serious I believe we are doing them a disservice and the man who comes a disservice. When they start having a hard time getting a pastor then maybe they will look at why and get down to business with God.

The first church I pastored was a replant. Ten people were left and they decided to do whatever it took to get it going again. They did too. However they did not realize the impact of their decision. They had never worked that hard. But they let me lead and we made it with God's incredible, miraculous help. I never saw a chruch get to the point wheer it prayed so much for incredible things. They challenged each other to walk with God and pray for their needs as a church. Today it is doing very well and is a healthy church.

 

[El_Guero]

gb

Many that claim to be called are not called.

 

[gb93433]

Does God ever call a person who does not want to pastor in a church? I believe we are already seeing more and more men and women who are discipling others while the number of pastors is on the decrease. Who is called? Those who makes disciples or those who "pastor" a church? The last survey they did a few years ago at SWBTS revealed that 2/3 of the theology students did not want to be a pastor but either work in or start a parachurch organization. Are the 2/3 called? Or are only the 1/3 called?

So often we say that the reason why a pastor does not stay is because he is not called. I believe the laziness and easy believeism among so many leaders in our churches today demonstrates they do not want a man who knows Jesus and is called to endure. They will not even let a man endure. So often when he calls them to walk with God by stretching them in doing practical ministry they want him to leave. He makes them uncomfortable. I have heard every excuse in the book why deacons cannot come with me to do ministry. Amazing how many golf games or family outings come up at the same time. When a man starts getting into the community it means he will encounter others and he will have to identify himself as someone who is a believer. I have had deacons tell me not to call on them to pray in church. I have had them get mad at me when I asked them to come with me to do ministry. I have seen deacons shake when I ask them to go knock on doors with me in the community where they live. All of them were changed by the challenge. Somne of them gained in strength and boldnes in a few hours with me. While some were hardened by the challenge. Some gave me a lot of trouble. None stayed in the same place spiritually.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
gb

Many that claim to be called are not called.

All are called to follow Jesus.

On the basis of results how many churches do you know personally who are actively making disciples who reproduce themselves? What percentage of the people in your denomination can claim someone has discipled them in such a way that they can disiple someone else?

After you have answered the previous two questions what does that say about God's calling on the leaders of those churches?

I believe if we had that kind of effectiveness among the students in secular society we would have a revolt by the taxpayers.

 

[El_Guero]

[ October 08, 2005, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: El_Guero ]