God's Effectual Call?

[Bob Colgan]

So Bible-Boy
Do you believe any body can become a minister of the Gospel?
What do you believe to be the qualification if any to be a minister?

By His Grace
Bob

 

[El_Guero]

This is the formal fallacy of begging the question.

No that is not. It was a clear and simple question.

Why has GOD NOT called YOU to ministry?

 

[El_Guero]

BB

How is it that you are holding against a divine call?

How is it that you are unable to come to a clear and personal, biblical definition of 'calling', yet most in the survey can?

Why do you find calling such a difficult expression?

[ October 07, 2005, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: El_Guero ]

 

[El_Guero]

Please define it. It would be most helpful if you could provide a Scripture reference

You defined the scope of calling in the OP. Why do you want me to redefine 'calling'?

I have the impression that you consider the 'call to ministry': to be important; not quite universal; and not in your life.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by Bob Colgan:
So Bible-Boy
Do you believe any body can become a minister of the Gospel?
What do you believe to be the qualification if any to be a minister?

By His Grace
Bob

Yes, I do believe that people can become ministers of the gospel.

The qualifications are set by the Scriptures. They are found in 1 Tim. 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9; and 1 Pet. 5:1-6. Note that nowhere in these passages is there any use of the term "call."

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is the formal fallacy of begging the question.

No that is not. It was a clear and simple question.

Why has GOD NOT called YOU to ministry? </font>[/QUOTE]Asking me is explain why God has not "called" me to ministry at this point in the discussion is committing the formal fallacy (a logic term used in debate) because your question is attampting to cause me to acknowledge that your premise that "God effectually calls" all who serve Him in ministry is valid and a correct understanding of the Scriptures. No one has yet to demonstrate from the text of Scripture that God does indeed "effectually call" all those that He wants in the ministry. Thus, begging the question.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
BB

How is it that you are holding against a divine call?

Because I am not convinced from the text of Scripture that God does indeed "call" all who would serve him in ministry today. I am not a Paul, Moses, Abraham, Daniel, John, etc.

How is it that you are unable to come to a clear and personal, biblical definition of 'calling', yet most in the survey can?

Because the Bible does not contain a single passage that states that such a "calling" is required for all those who would serve as ministers of the gospel. Likewise, I maintain that the people who selected the "God's effectual call" option in the survey have not in fact arrived at that conclusion through a clear understanding of the biblical texts; rather, they selected it based on what they think about the ministry due to a misguided accepting of a tradition.

Why do you find calling such a difficult expression?

Because we as Evangelicals apply it as a criterion to those who would serve in the ministry when God's word makes no mention of it being a requirement for all who would serve in the ministry of the gospel. In effect we are adding to the Word based on an unbiblical tradition on men.

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Please define it. It would be most helpful if you could provide a Scripture reference

You defined the scope of calling in the OP. Why do you want me to redefine 'calling'?

I have the impression that you consider the 'call to ministry': to be important; not quite universal; and not in your life. </font>[/QUOTE]No sir I did not. I quoted from Friesen's book and pointed out what some people say that "calling" is (or means). Then I demonstrated (using Friesen's argument) that such a term is not actually found to be a requirement, for all who would serve in ministry, within the text of Scripture.

I am attempting to get those who believe that "God effectually calls" all who would serve in ministry to understand that such a concept is not actually found in the Bible. Thus, I am asking for someone who supports that view to provide a definition of what they believe "call" means, provide Scripture to support that definition, and provide Scripture that shows that such a "call" is required of all who would serve as ministers of the gospel. Then hopefully some will realize that they have been holding to a requirement that is not found in our final authority--the Bible. Thus, they are placing an unbiblical and unreal expectation upon prosrective ministers. This will hopefully cause some to reevaluate their position and follow the text of Scripture and stop following an unbiblical tradition of men in this important area.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Bob Colgan:

Do you believe any body can become a minister of the Gospel?
What do you believe to be the qualification if any to be a minister?

Everyone is to be making disciples. A pastor is to be a gifted leader capable of leading a congregation. Nobody is a proven leader in a church unless he has made disciples.

 

[gb93433]

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by Bible-boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by El_Guero:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This is the formal fallacy of begging the question.

No that is not. It was a clear and simple question.

Why has GOD NOT called YOU to ministry? </font>[/QUOTE]Asking me is explain why God has not "called" me to ministry at this point in the discussion is committing the formal fallacy (a logic term used in debate) because your question is attampting to cause me to acknowledge that your premise that "God effectually calls" all who serve Him in ministry is valid and a correct understanding of the Scriptures. No one has yet to demonstrate from the text of Scripture that God does indeed "effectually call" all those that He wants in the ministry. Thus, begging the question. </font>[/QUOTE]Study logic then come back, and I will ask the same question again.

 

[El_Guero]

Asking a man that is studying to be in ministry why God has not called him into ministry is not a logical fallacy.

It is a question that you should have already been asked.

 

[bapmom]

El,

but I think he's trying to ask why God would HAVE to have given him a specific "call" in order for him to be going into the ministry.

I ask the same question.

 

[El_Guero]

Mom,

If God does not call you, that is an answer.

But, a man going into ministry should have an answer ...

 

[Gunther]

El, what you have been asked is the following:

1. Where does Scripture require or even hint at a "call to ministry"?

2. Why didn't Paul mention that in his list of requirement?

3. Why are you avoiding the questions?

4. Do you take pride in ignorance?

Please think through the answer and respond in such a way that we know you aren't just making up this "call". Thanks for being a team player.

 

[El_Guero]

Gunther

I am not on your team.

Join God's team.

Thanks

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Gunther:


1. Where does Scripture require or even hint at a "call to ministry"?

1 Tim 3:1, "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do."

 

[El_Guero]

Gunther,

While I really do not have the time to spend on you, I have studied the subject.

Where does Scripture require or even hint at a "call to ministry"?

Men called/ordained/sent by God.

The only one that I can think of that does not explicitly fit this is LUKE.

The ones that I know fit:

Paul, Peter, John, Jesus, all the rest of the Apostles, Isaiah, Jeremiah, David, Saul, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ...

Oh ... and just in case you did not get God's appointment, Judas did ...

 

[El_Guero]

Why didn't Paul mention that in his list of requirement?

 

[El_Guero]

(Titus 1: 5)The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.

Paul clearly 'left' (sent) Titus for the purpose of overseeing the implementation of those in ministry (installing the called)