God's Hatred Toward Sinners

I think Artimaus said it best. There was another thread on this a ways back, where I looked up OT references of the word "hate". Generally, it seems that where it says hate, it's not nate as we know it, it's an intense dislike. This is not hate as we know it.

So in that aspect, God can hate a person (dislike) and still love them. Since the NT is abundantly clear for God's love for all, and not just some, It stands to reason that God loves all, and not just some.

 

I believe the confusion in this debate rests on emotions. People have difficulty reconciling emotional love and emotional hatred, with a God who the Bible says is love.
We know we are made in the image of God, and that emotions are a part of that image. So the question is, with what emotions is God expressing in Hosea? I believe it is this. God hates sinners like you would hate a fly in your soup. That's what an abomination is--something that makes you sick in your stomach,cf Rev 21:27.

So then, what about love? Here is the difference. God’s love towards sinners (all re Jn 3:16) is agape’. This is a love that transcends emotions, it transcends the fact the recipient is undeserving, has done nothing to earn it, and so on. Therefore, God can reach out in agape’—looking past His emotions, with the promise of salvation. Likewise, we do the same. Our neighbor who emotionally we may hate, yet we can show them (true) love by reaching out with the gospel of Christ.

 

Therefore, God can reach out in agape’—looking past His emotions, with the promise of salvation.

Indeed. Would it not be disturbing to find out that salvation is based on emotion??

 

As long as we're playing word games over God hating and loving, I'll just throw in my two cents worth - God loves the sinner, and hates the sin, but in the final analysis there are some sinners that become one with their sin.

 

I love the story of the "Prodigal Son". Even when the son was away from the father....he was still his father's son.

He did not have to come home to regain his status as a child of his father.

He had to come back home to restore his fellowship with his father.

But his father was ALWAYS his father.

I'm a child of the King. Nothing can change that...


Sue

 

Slightly off-tangent, maybe, but still on the subject of Hell, God's justice and whether He 'hates' people, but here are a couple of points/ arguments to consider:-

The whole theology of penal substitutionary atonement is based on God's apparent hatred of sinners and seems to boil down to: "man is sinful, he cannot please God, he deserves punishment for his sins, Jesus takes that punishment, so if we accept Him then we are forgiven". Well, I'm not going to say that's wrong, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Salvation is bigger than usually painted, and from a different angle might look very different from how it is usually portrayed.

Personally, I find that for me the above model asks as many questions as it answers. This is a model I find more helpful:

Christianity has always held, from the earliest days, that Jesus was both fully God and fully Human. He was not God prancing around in a man-suit pretending to be human, but rather He ate, drank, slept, cried, rejoiced, and so forth. Nor was He just an extra special man with a few magic tricks and a hotline to heaven, but He really was God with man. Now, this is something of a tension, even a paradox, especially when ideas such as omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience are considered primary attributes of God, as clearly Jesus was none of these - if He had been, He could hardly have been human. No, He was God who had taken on the limitations of being human. This is the essence of the InNcarnation - kenosis.

I believe that Jesus' very person embodies reconciliation of God with man, inasmuch as Jesus is both. However, in order to fully reconcile all that being human entails, this God-man needs to suffer, at least in part, all the evil things that happen to people. Injustice, innocent suffering, persecution, intolerance, and so on. Therefore, only by Jesus' death in the manner in which it occurred is the reconciliation between God and man fully made.

This incarnational theology carries on beyond the Resurrection and onto the Ascension. The Ascension receives precious little attention from many apologists, and I think that this is a great shame. Jesus’ ascension as still Man and God takes humanity permanently into God. We have a stake in God’s nature. The upshot of all this is that everything it means to be human is to be found within God, and everything it means to be God has been found within a Man. Thus is our reconciliation with God made possible. What this means can only be worked out by the individual’s own walk in faith.

Hell
Does Hell exist? Well, Jesus talks about it to a certain extent, so presumably it does. But what is it? Well, it it has often been seen as a place where the souls of the dead are tormented for all eternity. I have some problems with this model, on a number of levels.

1. If God is just, then He cannot punish finite sin with an infinite punishment.

I've heard some remarkably esoteric arguments against this point, but they still fail for me. Have a little look around you, and think of some people you know who make no profession of faith. Of course, you don't know exactly what their sins are, but you can probably imagine - they're likely pretty much like yours. Now, they are not perfect, of course not. Ask yourself whether they deserve to be tormented eternally. Not whether you want them to be, but whether the way they live their lives actually deserves that. Now ask whether God is less mercifully inclined than you.

2. If Jesus’ suffering is sufficient ‘punishment’, as it is in PSA models, for the sins of the world, how can eternal torment be the just punishment as well. Jesus’ suffering, terrible as it was, was finite.

Really, this is partially supportive of 1. above. If Jesus took the punishment that should be mine (although as above, this is not the model I'm particularly inclined towards), then that sin could alternatively be punished by me receiving the same penalty. Which was not infinite.

3. The images of Hell in the Bible are of destruction.

The Lake of Fire for example. Have you ever seen what happens when things are thrown into a pool of lava. They are utterly destroyed within seconds, and nothing remains of them. I don't think the model here is really of us being thrown into a pool of molten rock, but the important thing is the complete and utter destruction. And that's what Hell is about. Sin and evil are destructive. They will ultimately destroy us

4. The ‘lake of fire’ is called the Second Death. Death and consciousness are not generally considered compatible.

Just as in point 3. This reinforces that nothing survives the destruction that Hell represents - the final end to which evil takes us. Jesus tells us not to fear the destruction of the body, because in Him we can be raised from physical death, but rather to fear our utter physical and spiritual destruction.

Salvation only for Christians

This comes from an image of God as unable to let anyone into heaven unless they sign on the doctrinal dotted line. But it is not what the Bible says! Firstly, it is clear that God is looking for reasons to save, not to condemn, any given person:

2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

How can it be otherwise, if God loves people? Jesus’ statement ‘I am the way, the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me’ is often quoted in this regard. But we must look at this in the context of John’s gospel (where the saying occurs), which has, at its opening:

John 1:9

The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Lights every man - Not just those who believe a particular set of propositions. But wherever folk are enlightened to what is right and good, it is this Light who enlightens them. And when they follow that enlightenment, they follow that Light.

John goes on to talk about salvation and judgement in these terms:

John 3:19-21

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of the light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.

Yes, access to God is through this Person, but we do not have to know His name. Jesus' claims of exclucivisity are correct; He and He alone is the reconciler between God and Man. But it is a far cry from that to saying that anyone who doesn't 'become a Christian' and sign on the correct dotted line is doomed to Hell. It is our attitude to the Light, to Grace and Truth, to Right and Wrong that matters. This is not salvation by works; it is not by doing the right things that God accepts us, but rather by our attitude - do we turn away from, or receive, the Light?

Any thoughts on this?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Matt 7:14

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it . (Emphasis mine)

You have to do lots of twisting of scripture to justify the universalist doctrine. It's a very sad thing that so many are buying into it. Even those who call themselves Baptists.

This world needs the gospel. The whole gospel according to the word of God. Not a rosey, you're ok, I'm ok, we're all ok universalist message.

Jude 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

 

1. Since the sin is against an INFINITE God, and since man is FINITE, he must be punished for ETERNITY

2. Since Christ as GOD is INFINITE then He can pay the penalty without doing so for all ETERNITY (in the sense that finite temportal beings must).

 

We have to be careful, not just about what we say, but how we say it. There are verses that say that God has set Himself with unrelenting resolve against evil and, consequently, against those who have given themselves over to evil. This is "hate." The unregenerate will be cast out from God's presence forever. They will be consigned to hell and there will be no second chances. Actually, I'm convinced that, apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, sinners don't want to repent. The lost are not fit for Heaven because Heaven is a place of unceasing praise to our God, something they have no desire to do. The lost don't want to obey, but there is only one Lord in heaven.
There are also verses that speak of the saints rejoicing when righteousness is vindicated in the destruction of the wicked. It is like the way I'm going to feel after we deal with Sadaam.
But I think the post was worded extremely poorly, not in what it said, but in it's connotation. Jesus wept over wicked, sinful Jerusalem. God declared through Ezek. that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that the wicked would turn from their evil ways and live. Do you have a loved one that is lost? Does God love that loved one of yours LESS than you do?

 

Matt 7:14

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it . (Emphasis mine)

You have to do lots of twisting of scripture to justify the universalist doctrine. It's a very sad thing that so many are buying into it. Even those who call themselves Baptists.

This world needs the gospel. The whole gospel according to the word of God. Not a rosey, you're ok, I'm ok, we're all ok universalist message.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Mom o Five,
I am a mother of five also.

You said, this world needs the gospel, the whole gospel, I ask you, does the world need to hear the message that God hates them? Is that message going to draw them? And if they come due to fear, what kind of love will it be? The kind where people honor him with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him? The word says that perfect love casts out fear. When I was reading the thread about God's utter hatred for sinners, it made my straight hair curly.

I John says that God is Love and in Him is no darkness at all...and yet some of the posts on this thread are total darkness, sayng God hates sinners, It makes me cry to hear this, as I think of what our precious Lord endured on behalf of sinners.
mocked...whipped...spit upon...blood running down His forehead ...impaled with nails...He poured out His life...why? Because He LOVED sinners! And while He is dying ... what does he say about his killers? He says, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,"
What manner of *love* is this????
Scripture also tells us that the Son is the one that we will be judged by, and that it is HE who holds the keys to hell and death. I dare say, you sell our Lord and the cross very short by saying that "God hates sinners"

and while we were YET sinners, Christ died for the UNGODLY.

Jesus loves sinners, shout it from the rooftops!

JESUS LOVES SINNERS!!!!!!!!!!

 

Honeycomb;First of all,let me re-enforce what has already been said by asking you a few questions.How can you say that God loves all men when Psa.5:5 tells us that He hates the worker of iniquity? How can you maintain that God loves all when Paul says that He bears the objects of His wrath,being fitted for destruction,with great patience,Rom.9:22?How then can you possibly accept that God loves all men without exception when we survey the acts of God's wrath in history?What about the flood which destroyed all but 8?What about Sodom and Gomorah,with so specific a chapter as Rom.1 which declares that sodomy is a sign of reprobation,could you possibly maintain that God loved the population of those two cities destroyed by fire? No one ought to conclude that because God's love is universally extended to all that God therefore loves everyone equally.The fact that God loves every man and woman does not mean that He loves all alike Rom.9:13 There are those who deny that God truly hates anyone! They will say that:God hates the sin but loves the sinner. That is a false dichotomy,remember this,it is the sinner himself who is judged and condemned and punished! If God hated only the sin and not the sinner,He would strip away the sin and redeem the sinner,rather than casting the whole person into hell,Mt.5:29;10:28. Hell is,after all,the final expression of God's hatred.God does hate the reprobate sinner in a very real and terrifying sense.This is clearly taught in Scripture,Psa.5:5-6;11:5. This is not a milicious hatred,it is a holy abhorance for that which is vile and loathsome and evil. But,it is true hatred nonetheless! So,while there is a genuine sense in which God' love is universal in its extent,there is another sense in which it is limited in degree. The love of God for all humanity is not the sort of love that guarantees everyone's salvation. It is not a love that nullifies God's holy abhorance of sin.It is not a saving love.

 

One wonders about this need to speak of "hate." I myself have come from an extreme fundamentalist background. I really believe that the need to go hot and heavy on "hate" has more to do with what's going on in us than what we read in Scripture.
There is a reactionary response to compromises of Scripture, mostly real but to some extent perceived. We are troubled by universalism and relativism and we should be. The Scripture is clear that all without Christ are doomed to hell. But beyond the legitimate concern, I think that many have equated militancy with faithfulness to Scripture. The more militant the better. What could be more militant than hate?
There seems to be a kind of separtist oneupmanship that operates in many circles today. The louder, the angier, and the narrower we can be, the more godly we must be. Since everybody talks about love, let's champion hate.
Others have already pointed out in this thread that "hate" and "love" when postulated of God are not the same things as human emotions. The immutability of God precludes us from imagining that God has emotions such as ours. (That is not to say that the emotions predicated of God in Scripture are completely anthropomorphisms; it's just that it's misleading to make God into either a sentimental or an angry human.)
We do need to talk straight about eternal retribution. But we also need to be careful we don't blaspheme God. God's hate is not the same as a malicious and raging person. Those traits are more align with the works of the flesh than the fruit of the Spirit. Surely God Himself reflects the fruit of the Spirit.
Second,

 

Dear Brutus,
I will respond to your post...there are many things in there I want to address, but as I have a quiver of children, it might take me a bit of time...please be patient. I need to look up some verses, etc to give an adequate reponse.
Til then, let me just just remind you, that God so LOVED the world...it doesn't say that God HATED the world. Also, no where in the scriptures does it say, that God*IS*wrath, or that God's judgements exclude His mercy.

You are saying God's love is completely conditional.. God only loves those who love him back... doesn't the Bible say that even sinners love those who love them? And that we are to love our enemies? If God who is infinite doesn't love his enemies, why does He expect us frail finite human beings to love ours?

Til later, Brutus....I will respond to your issues asap.
peace to you

 

Greetings Brutus,
Thank you for your patience.

God is not a respecter of persons, and yet you say....
that God doesn't love everyone equally and you gave me some examples, of God destroying those in Sodom and Gomorrah and those who died in the great flood of Noah's Day. Yes, it is true, God spared the lives of only eight people in the flood. The rest drowned, BUT God has the power to take life and give life again. (Deut32:39... I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal.)

I Peter 3:18 (emphasis and () my own)
...For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went ***and preached*** (preached to who?) unto the spirits in prison...which sometime were disobedient,(those who missed Noah's boat) when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while in the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water.

Why did Jesus preach the gospel to the spirits in prison???? The answer is given a little further down in 4:6 FOR THIS CAUSE WAS THE GOSPEL PREACHED ALSO TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD... that they...might be judged according to men in the flesh, *BUT* live according to God in the spirit.

Sodom and Gomorrah...Jude 7 says the fire burns eternal, but the fire went out some time ago, no?
Let's discuss Gehenna for a minute...an air current flowed through the Valley of Hinnom, which kept the fires burning. (unquenchable)The fires destroyed the trash and waste in the ol' garbage dump. ..When all that could be consumed, was consumed, the fire went out on it's own. Today, in the Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna is a beautiful garden...no more fire, no more garbage... Beauty comes forth from ashes.

I John 3:8 says For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might DESTROY the *works* of the devil"
What are the works of the devil? think about it, pray about it ernestly.

spoken of the disobedient one in Corinth...
1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, *THAT* the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
flesh-destroyed/spirit-saved

John and James wanted to bring down fire on the heads of the Samaritans for not believing the gospel...Jesus said "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of, For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them" Luke 9 54-56

Romans 9 Esau and Jacob... the lump of clay, the pot doesn't tell the potter what it shall be, the Potter decides... 16 So then...it is not by man's will or by human effort, but of God who shows mercy.
why did God make Pharoah a vessel of dishonor? vs 17 that I might show my power and that my name be declared throughout the earth.
We see a further in
Romans,11:32... For God hath concluded them all in unbelief so that he may have mercy upon all. All includes all the vessels. God uses both vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor to bring about His will and purpose.

For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
But though he cause grief,
yet will he have compassion
according to the multitude of his mercies.
For he does not afflict willingly
nor grieve the children of men.

Well, I hope I addressed your rebuttal, if I left anything out, please let me know. I just want to end with this thought...

And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for...behold...I bring you
good tidings of great joy... which shall be to ***all people***...for unto you is born in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.


Peace to you

 

Ouch! It seems we go from extreme to the other. Honeycomb, if I understood her, teaches post-mortum conversion based on an erroneous exegesis of I Pet. The preaching that was done to the spirits who are now in prison (hell) was done by the Spirit of Christ through Noah. In other words, they had their preaching. Jesus, as has been wrongly taught, did not descend to hell after He died. He didn't even go down there to get saints from a compartment of the nether world called paradise and bring them up to heaven. This is the compartmental view of hell and is erroneous (although its much less in error than Honeycomb's post-mortum conversion.)Once the door closes on hell, nobody ever gets out.
I can sympathize with Honeycomb's view. In spirit, anyways, it seems far better than shouting out that God hates sinners. I wish there were no hell. I wish universalism were true. If not that, then annihilationism would be desired. But one can't be faithful to the Scriptures and deny that the lost go to eternal damnation (Mt. 25).
I would recommend Larry Dixon's "The Other Side of the Good News." A very balanced and scriptural presentation on the doctrine of hell.