God's Hatred Toward Sinners

Mark; I think that you need to go back and reread what I posted and you will see that we are in agreement concerning God's hatred of sinners! Furthermore,after reading through all of the posts here I do not see where anyone (Calvinist)has attempted to hijack your thread by propagating Calvinism! Michael

 

Wow, I go away for the weekend and come back to discover that I've stirred up quite a bit of anger, it would seem! This was certainly not my intention.

Mark , first I am not quite sure how you construe my post as treating the cross as something that represents God/Jesus as somehow 'apologising' for sin. If I had said that, then that view would indeed be heretical. But, no, I fully acknowledge that man, and man alone. is resposible for the Fall and for sin. Secondly, I was a bit shocked by your ad hominem attack on me, particularly on a Christian board and from someone who would no doubt state he is a Christian. I don't think that personal attack was warranted and the fact that you resorted to it rather than engage with my points strongly suggests to me that you don't have much of an argument against them. To some extent, I feel like the guy in the Monty Python 'Argument sketch' ("I came here for an argument." "Oh, I'm sorry but this is Abuse.").

Mom o five - again, I don't see how you can say that I'm espousing universalism - if you read my post carefull you would have seen that I affirm the Exclusivity of Jesus' claim to be the Way, the Truth and the Life.

What I was attempting to do was to lay out some of the objections to PSA in the hope of getting answers. I would dearly like to wholeheartedly subscribe to PSA, but there are problems with it, not least of which are the Socinian objections which I attempted in part to set out (yes, I know Faustus Socinius was a Pelagian and a Unitarian which makes him a heretic on at least two counts, but his problems with PSA are no less valid or real for that), but also I just find it very difficult to worship and love this angry, hateful, vengeful idea of God that seems to be propounded here. I was hoping to fing some answers to the objections, but so far only Doubting Thomas (ironic, given his name, eh?) has come up with anything cogent.

So can anyone do any better - please answer my doubts wrt PSA, rather than resorting to abuse! THank you!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Hello Matt B,

what is PSA??? do you mind my asking?

your thoughts of "not knowing Jesus name" reminded me of ...
Paul's beautiful sermon on Mars Hill, Acts 17

22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something as unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."
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Honeycomb: Please check your PMs. This is a Baptist only posting area. Thank you, Jim1999, Moderator

[ March 03, 2003, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

Sometimes, when we try to understand God, we look into the mirror, and when we think we are defining God, we are actually defining ourselves. At that point, God seems to appear much like a man.
Fortunately, the Living God is not a man. And the Living God does love all that He has made.

Rom 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. [7] Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. [8] But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. [8] Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. [9] This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. [10] This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. [11] Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [12] No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

 

Hi, Honeycomb. You asked for a reference to Noah's preaching. II Pet. 2:5: "If he (God) did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness," etc.
My problem with this thread is more with the dispostion than with the position. Mark makes a distinction between the "him" who's a sinner and the "him" who's now saved, but there's not two hims.
I think that Mark's position is more deeply problematic than at first might appear. First of all, it posits mutability with God. God changed from hating Smith to loving Smith. Romans tells us while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Another problem also exists. Liberals have tried to deny the idea of propitiation because they think it involves a manipulation of God. Pagan deities could be bought off by sacrifices and it is certainly unworthy to think that God can be so manipulated. So they tried to substitute expiation (sin removed) for propitiation (wrath satisfied). But the biblical teaching on propitiation is not that humans can manipulate God with some kind of sacrifice. God himself provides the propitiation. He didn't turn from hate to love on the basis of a sacrifice. Rather, he loved those whose sins must be punished and so provided in himself for that punishment to spare those he loves. Again, while they were yet sinners he did this.

 

John 3:16 (nKJV):
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

PSA= penal substitutionary atonement; the idea that Jesus took the punishment for our sins in our place to appease the Father. It's a pretty classical Reformation doctrine, (and is laid out best in Rom 1-3), but almost immediately came under fire from Socinius and others. It's a doctrine I've adhered to for many years but recently have been struggling with, for the reasons I've said. I would still like to believe it but need answers to my questions - so far as I've said only Doubting Thomas has provided any - I need more!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Isn't Scripture great!?

PS 145:13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures through all generations.

The LORD is faithful to all his promises
and loving toward all he has made.

PS 145:14 The LORD upholds all those who fall
and lifts up all who are bowed down.

PS 145:15 The eyes of all look to you,
and you give them their food at the proper time.

PS 145:16 You open your hand
and satisfy the desires of every living thing.

PS 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways
and loving toward all he has made.

It seems that some need to get away from their own mirror, and look into perfect law of liberty.

 

To all interested in this great topic, John MacArthur has an excellent, excellent book and tape series on this called "The Love of God." You can pick it up at http://www.gty.org. I recommend it.

Brian