God's love 2

[Judith]

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

 

[robustheologian]

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

While God has a love for everyone, he has a special love for the elect. A husband is commanded to love all people including women but he has a special love for his wife... just like Jesus has a special love for his bride.

 

[Van]

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

Scripture uses "agape" to indicate a different aspect of love than phileo. We can usually understand "agape" as sacrificial love, a sacrificial commitment to another, as in God giving His Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

On the other hand, scripture use "phileo" to indicate a relational bond with another, such as a family member or dear friend. Those God has set apart in Christ thus are receiving agape love and phileo love as a spiritual child of God.

When you say you believe in Election, I understand you to be saying you believe in the Calvinist understanding of election, i.e. God chose foreseen individuals before creation for salvation.

I believe in Election too, but I believe in the election of 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God sets individuals apart through faith in the truth, which means the election occurs during our lifetime.

Not to put too fine a point on it, your view has individual election before faith, and my view has faith before our individual election.

When you get the sequence right, the difficulty melts away....

 

[Gina B]

Maybe the more pressing concern is "How do I express God's love to ALL" rather than "How does God express love to some people?"
Sometimes the holiest appearing people need the simple questions most.

 

[salzer mtn]

The scripture John 2:1-2 John being a Jew is writing to the little children (Christians) not the lost. He is saying that Christ is the sacrifice for us (Jewish believers) and not only a sacrifice for us but for the whole world (Gentile believers). The Jews referred to the Gentiles as the world, St. John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves , perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold the world is gone after him, the Pharisees were referring to the Greeks. We know the whole world without exception did not and does not go after Christ. The word world when used in the bible does not mean every time every individual in the world. World can be the universe, individual people, or every person alive. There is a world of the lost and a world of the elect. We can also apply this in modern times. If you are living in a large city you have by day a people that work their jobs in their world and at night you have a world of gang members that come out at night into their world and sell drugs, rob, rape, and kill people. Each individual has their own world they travel in.

 

[Van]

Hi Salzer Mtn, I believe your interpretation of 1 John 2:1-2 is off the mark. Little children does indeed refer to born anew believers, the us of 1 John 2:2, but the whole world refers to the lost, whether Jew or Gentile.

Your view is driven by agenda, supporting Limited Atonement, but 1 John 2:12 provides compelling evidence little children are believers, Jews and Gentiles. Then verse 16 makes clear the world is fallen, not saved.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

Truth be told, he doesn't....
Now, the common Determinist answer is to say that he provides for them in Earthly matters (food, shelter, prosperity etc.). and thus..."love". "The rain shines on the just and the unjust" etc.

Therefore, he "loves" them.
Of course...there are some Determinists/5-pointers/Calvinists who make no bones about it and don't claim that God loves the non-elect at all. Some, are consistent and just leave it with "he hates them, they're sinners, so what". That is what I would call a logically consistent Calvinist. The inconsistent ones make hey of him feeding them (sometimes rather poorly) for a few miserable years on Earth and call that "love".
The problem is manifest in that he chooses not to save them nor make provision for their salvation whereas he easily could have if he so chose.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

Here, it would be beneficial to define freedom of the will.
If you believe that man is constrained by internal necessity to always choose that which is evil, and never to accept grace, than, he isn't really free in any meaningful sense. In other words if he is not capable of choosing Christ, (due do internal deterministic factors) than, he isn't "free", he is merely not externally coerced. But if he is incapable of choosing more than one option, than he isn't really "free" to do anything other than what his programming flawlessly and irrevocably constrains him to do.

It's a bit like being given two boxes from which the "chooser" must select one item. In one box is a deadly scorpion, in the other is a raspberry tart. The "chooser" is required to pick an item out of ONE of the boxes, and God does not decide for them.......by external coercion anyway.
Except that the box with the scorpion has a 4-inch hole in the top that a hand can fit through, and the one with the raspberry tart has a 2mm. gap and inasmuch as the "chooser" is incapable of reaching into the box with the tart he defaults to the scorpion....
Because he isn't capable of getting at the other one anyway because he is constrained by the size of his own hand.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

The buzz-phrase is that the atonement is limited in "scope" but not "power"....so, it COULD be efficacious for all, except God doesn't want it to be.

So, he shrinks the hand of the "elect" down to 1mm thus rendering them capable of selecting the raspberry tart...
But, even though he is perfectly capable of doing the same for the non-elect as well, he instead stares at them vainly attempting to take an option they aren't capable of and laughs with glee as they suffer in torment.

That's why you are having a hard time understanding God's "love" for the "non-elect"....
It's because any Theologically consistent person doesn't pretend he loves them.....
Because if that Theology is correct, he doesn't.

 

[salzer mtn]

Many people try to compare 1 John 2:2 with St. John 3:16 as per the world meaning that Christ died for or is a propitiation for every individual in the world, non excluded both past and present. The blood is what saves. I think most will agree. So if the blood is a propitiation for all without exception, then all would be saved or else the blood doesn't have real power to save if a host of people past and present die lost. So we must conclude the blood is a propitiation for a number that no man can number and no more for it to be effectual. 1 John2:15 Love not the world
The habitable earth, the world in which men live; this is not to be loved by saints, as if it was their habitation, where they are always to be, and so loath to remove from it, seeing they are but sojourners, and pilgrims, and strangers here; this is not their rest, nor dwellingplace, their continuing city, or proper country, that is heaven. Nor should they love the men of the world, who are as they came into it, are of it, and mind the things of it, and lie in wickedness, and are wicked men; for though these are to be loved, as men, as fellow creatures, and their good, both spiritual and temporal, is to be sought, and good is to be done to them, as much as lies in our power, both with respect to soul and body; yet their company is not to be chosen, and preferred to the saints, but to be shunned and avoided, as disagreeable and dangerous; their evil conversation, and wicked communications, are not to be loved, but abhorred, and their works of darkness are to be reproved; nor are their ways to be imitated, and their customs followed, or their manners to be conformed unto: 1 John 2:16 All the world of the wicked are caught up in the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. 1 John 2:17 And this earth full of the lustful wicked will pass away.

 

[quantumfaith]

I think life, even life in this world and on this planet is a blessing and a grace of God. I think it is to be treasured and savored and we should use our talents, gifts and resources to display the love of God and His message of redemption.

It is sometimes to simple to proclaim that we have no part in this world and focus attention on the next to the exclusion and detriment of those we encounter during this journey of life.

"Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself"


"Act justly, love mercy and walk humbly before your God."

Engage the world around you with love, mercy and the message of redemption, do not shrink selfish attention of life after life.

 

[salzer mtn]

I think life, even life in this world and on this planet is a blessing and a grace of God. I think it is to be treasured and savored and we should use our talents, gifts and resources to display the love of God and His message of redemption.

It is sometimes to simple to proclaim that we have no part in this world and focus attention on the next to the exclusion and detriment of those we encounter during this journey of life.

"Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself"


"Act justly, love mercy and walk humbly before your God."

Engage the world around you with love, mercy and the message of redemption, do not shrink selfish attention of life after life.

I have a question for you. Do you love God with all your heart ? Do you love your neighbor as yourself ?

 

[quantumfaith]

I have a question for you. Do you love God with all your heart ? Do you love your neighbor as yourself ?

Of course not. Do YOU?

 

[salzer mtn]

Of course not. Do YOU?

So if you don't, why did you bother to put the scriptures up ? Was it just to rebuff what I had put up ?

 

[quantumfaith]

So if you don't, why did you bother to put the scriptures up ? Was it just to rebuff what I had put up ?

So you are not going to answer the provocative question that you yourself posed?

 

[salzer mtn]

So you are not going to answer the provocative question that you yourself posed?

I was not the one that posted the scripture as if I kept these commandments or expected other people too.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Of course not. Do YOU?

The right answer....:thumbsup:

salzer mtn.
So if you don't, why did you bother to put the scriptures up ? Was it just to rebuff what I had put up ?

Bush-league move:
Answer the question you presumed to ask Quantum if you are a real man...

"Can you honestly say that you love the Lord with all your heart?
Do you love your neighbor as yourself?"

Quantum answered honestly.

Man-up like him or shut up.

 

[salzer mtn]

The right answer....:thumbsup:

Bush-league move:
Answer the question you presumed to ask Quantum if you are a real man...

"Can you honestly say that you love the Lord with all your heart?
Do you love your neighbor as yourself?"

Quantum answered honestly.

Man-up like him or shut up.

All you are trying to do is provoke me to anger with all your if you are a real man, Man-up or shut up stupid talk. It won't work.

 

[Van]

Many people try to compare 1 John 2:2 with St. John 3:16 as per the world meaning that Christ died for or is a propitiation for every individual in the world, non excluded both past and present. The blood is what saves. I think most will agree. So if the blood is a propitiation for all without exception, then all would be saved or else the blood doesn't have real power to save if a host of people past and present die lost. So we must conclude the blood is a propitiation for a number that no man can number and no more for it to be effectual. 1 John2:15 Love not the world
The habitable earth, the world in which men live; this is not to be loved by saints, as if it was their habitation, where they are always to be, and so loath to remove from it, seeing they are but sojourners, and pilgrims, and strangers here; this is not their rest, nor dwellingplace, their continuing city, or proper country, that is heaven. Nor should they love the men of the world, who are as they came into it, are of it, and mind the things of it, and lie in wickedness, and are wicked men; for though these are to be loved, as men, as fellow creatures, and their good, both spiritual and temporal, is to be sought, and good is to be done to them, as much as lies in our power, both with respect to soul and body; yet their company is not to be chosen, and preferred to the saints, but to be shunned and avoided, as disagreeable and dangerous; their evil conversation, and wicked communications, are not to be loved, but abhorred, and their works of darkness are to be reproved; nor are their ways to be imitated, and their customs followed, or their manners to be conformed unto: 1 John 2:16 All the world of the wicked are caught up in the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. 1 John 2:17 And this earth full of the lustful wicked will pass away.

Hi Salzer Mtn, John uses the term translated "world" to mean fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind.

You claim for Christ to be the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, then the whole world must be propitiated. Not valid. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation are propitiated.

Next, you claim we as born anew believers should not love the people of the world, i.e. the lost. But Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Are we to love our neighbor as our-self? How can we emulate the "Good Samaritan" if we do not love mankind as Christ did.

 

[Inspector Javert]

All you are trying to do is provoke me to anger QUOTE]

No, I'm not trying to provoke you to anger.....
I'm exposing you.

You asked a man a hard and pointed question.
He answered it honestly.
He returned the question in like manner.

You were too much of a coward to answer in true form.

I'm not provoking you...
I'm exposing you.

You are being morally cowardly unlike Quantum.
I knew you would, and you are proving me correct.

 

[salzer mtn]

Hi Salzer Mtn, John uses the term translated "world" to mean fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind.

You claim for Christ to be the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, then the whole world must be propitiated. Not valid. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation are propitiated.

Next, you claim we as born anew believers should not love the people of the world, i.e. the lost. But Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Are we to love our neighbor as our-self? How can we emulate the "Good Samaritan" if we do not love mankind as Christ did.

Rev 1:5 He hath washed us from our sins in his own blood, Act's 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. These scripture and many more like them say's the blood of Christ shed, plus nothing else saves us. Therefore being saved by his blood we are elect and predestinated to believe on him, Eph 2:10. Some would say, the way I believe in believing on Christ takes away free will and God forces a man to believe. Not so, In Phil 2:12 we have the commandment to work out our salvation, but what God commands, God gives and what God gives, God accepts. In verse 13 For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure. I have never heard of any man seeking the Lord against the man's will. All men that seek the Lord does so with all their heart. It's like treasure hid in the field or a pearl of great price. We would sell all we had and buy it. Why do men seek Christ with all their heart ? Because it is God working in that elect person to believe. So we come to Christ with freedom of will not against our will.

 

[Rippon]

Hi Salzer Mtn, John uses the term translated "world" to mean fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind.

John uses the word world in about ten different senses as would be apparent to you if you would examine Scripture.

You claim for Christ to be the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world

Propitiation does not = "means of salvation" as you have been told time and time again.

But Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.

Actually He gave his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 20:28 :
...to give his life as a ransom for many

Matthew 26:28 :
This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 10:45 :
...to give his life as a ransom for many