God's love 2

[Iconoclast]

John uses the word world in about ten different senses as would be apparent to you if you would examine Scripture.

Propitiation does not = "means of salvation" as you have been told time and time again.

Actually He gave his life as a ransom for many.

Matthew 20:28 :
...to give his life as a ransom for many

Matthew 26:28 :
This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 10:45 :
...to give his life as a ransom for many

:thumbsup::laugh::laugh::thumbsup:

 

[Van]

Rev 1:5 He hath washed us from our sins in his own blood, Act's 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. These scripture and many more like them say's the blood of Christ shed, plus nothing else saves us. Therefore being saved by his blood we are elect and predestinated to believe on him, Eph 2:10. Some would say, the way I believe in believing on Christ takes away free will and God forces a man to believe. Not so, In Phil 2:12 we have the commandment to work out our salvation, but what God commands, God gives and what God gives, God accepts. In verse 13 For it is God that worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of his good pleasure. I have never heard of any man seeking the Lord against the man's will. All men that seek the Lord does so with all their heart. It's like treasure hid in the field or a pearl of great price. We would sell all we had and buy it. Why do men seek Christ with all their heart ? Because it is God working in that elect person to believe. So we come to Christ with freedom of will not against our will.

Here we have the change the subject ploy, as if anyone had said Christ's death, figuratively the shedding of His blood, was unnecessary. Thus a non-germane argument.

Next, we get the assertion we are predestined to believe on Him. But does Ephesians 2:10 support that assertion? Nope.

Then we get yet another assertion, applying the work God does within a born anew believer, to the lost.

Next we get the claim that all men that seek the Lord, do so with all their heart, but Matthew 13 refutes that claim.

Basically I provided from 1 John 2 evidence that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, which refers to the lost, both Jews and Gentiles. No rebuttal was offered, just more mistaken assertions.

 

[Van]

John uses the word translated "world" to refer to fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind, both at John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2.

Next a Calvinist denies 1 Timothy 2:6 which teaches Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all.

They claim for Christ to be the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, then the whole world must be propitiated. Not valid. Only those that "receive" the reconciliation are propitiated.

Next, it was claimed we as born anew believers should not love the people of the world, i.e. the lost. But Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all. Are we to love our neighbor as our-self? How can we emulate the "Good Samaritan" if we do not love mankind as Christ did.

God loved fallen mankind in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that anyone who believes into Christ shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Rippon]

Next, we get the assertion we are predestined to believe on Him. But does Ephesians 2:10 support that assertion? Nope.

Wrong again, Mr. Van.

Ephesians 2:4-10 says that :"because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions --it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the inconcomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith --and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God --not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's haniwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (NIV)

Did you catch all the personal pronouns? This work in our hearts is from God. He had a great love for us and made us alive with Christ. It is by grace that we (his elect ones) are saved. We have no merit in ourselves. It is soly through the distinguishing grace of our Lord. This grace and love was manifested in his predestination of us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4;2 Tim.1:9)

I provided from 1 John 2 evidence that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation

Propitiation does not = means of salvation as you have wrongly asserted time and agin.

for the whole world, which refers to the lost, both Jews and Gentiles.

The propitiatory sacrifice of Christ extended world-wide to all the scatted children of God. It certainly does not refer to every single individual who has and shall exist.

The propitiation is real --not hypothetical. Christ is the propitiation for all of his elect children internationally throughout all the ages of the earth.

 

[Calypsis4]

an answer

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

Excellent questions, Judith.:flower:

 

[salzer mtn]

Posted by Van {Next we get the claim that all men that seek the Lord, do so with all their heart, but Matthew 13 refutes that claim.} Read it again. The all men I was referring to was, all of the elect. Also I was talking about real seekers that seek God with all of their heart.

 

[Van]

Yet more posts addressing non issues. When God elects an individual for salvation through faith in the truth, He sets that individual spiritually apart in Christ. Thus they placed their faith in Christ before election for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Then we get the repeated fiction that Ephesians 2:10 supports the "predestined to believe" Calvinist doctrine. What it actually teaches is that God prepared beforehand the "good works" so that we, born anew believers, would walk in them.

Folks, verse after verse is cited, and claimed to say what they do not say.

They deny that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, but 1 John 2:2 refutes their view.

1 John Chapter 2 makes clear that Christ became the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only as born anew believers who are both Jews and Gentiles, but also for the whole world of fallen mankind, made up of Jews and Gentiles. See verses 12 and 16.

Did anyone say propitiation is not real for those who receive the reconciliation? Nope. Again and again misrepresentations are posted to avoid the rather obvious truths of scripture.

God loved fallen mankind in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that anyone who believes into Christ shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[salzer mtn]

You believe in order to make the blood effectual, fallen man has to believe, or in other words when Christ said it was finished upon the cross it was not really finished until man say's it's finished by believing. :tonofbricks:

 

[quantumfaith]

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

Judith,

I have often been "uncomfortable" with the way the term "elect" is often bantered about, most likely because I am decidedly "not calvinistic" in my theology. Came across this article which I found interesting and informative.

http://www.douglashamp.com/why-god-...vation-and-commonly-is-a-reference-to-israel/

 

[Bro. Curtis]

:thumbs:

Referring to the lost as "non-elect" is one of the biggest hurdles to being a five-pointer I know of. I never want to be that arrogant.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbs:

Referring to the lost as "non-elect" is one of the biggest hurdles to being a five-pointer I know of. I never want to be that arrogant.

There are the lost and there are the 'up your nose with a rubber hose ' lost. :laugh:

You do understand the difference I'm sure.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

There are the lost and there are the 'up your nose with a rubber hose ' lost. :laugh:

You do understand the difference I'm sure.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[quantumfaith]

:thumbs:

Referring to the lost as "non-elect" is one of the biggest hurdles to being a five-pointer I know of. I never want to be that arrogant.

Your honesty is appreciated.

 

[salzer mtn]

:thumbs:

Referring to the lost as "non-elect" is one of the biggest hurdles to being a five-pointer I know of. I never want to be that arrogant.

No one on this board believes that. I certainly don't believe because a man is lost at the moment he is non-elect.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I see "non-elect" used here, all the time.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

http://www.baptistboard.com/search.php?searchid=2667020

 

[salzer mtn]

http://www.baptistboard.com/search.php?searchid=2667020

All I got from this is a bunch of thread topics. Can you find a statement from a 5 pointer to back up your first statement ?

 

[Revmitchell]

Truth be told, he doesn't....
Now, the common Determinist answer is to say that he provides for them in Earthly matters (food, shelter, prosperity etc.). and thus..."love". "The rain shines on the just and the unjust" etc.

Therefore, he "loves" them.
Of course...there are some Determinists/5-pointers/Calvinists who make no bones about it and don't claim that God loves the non-elect at all. Some, are consistent and just leave it with "he hates them, they're sinners, so what". That is what I would call a logically consistent Calvinist. The inconsistent ones make hey of him feeding them (sometimes rather poorly) for a few miserable years on Earth and call that "love".
The problem is manifest in that he chooses not to save them nor make provision for their salvation whereas he easily could have if he so chose.

Here, it would be beneficial to define freedom of the will.
If you believe that man is constrained by internal necessity to always choose that which is evil, and never to accept grace, than, he isn't really free in any meaningful sense. In other words if he is not capable of choosing Christ, (due do internal deterministic factors) than, he isn't "free", he is merely not externally coerced. But if he is incapable of choosing more than one option, than he isn't really "free" to do anything other than what his programming flawlessly and irrevocably constrains him to do.

It's a bit like being given two boxes from which the "chooser" must select one item. In one box is a deadly scorpion, in the other is a raspberry tart. The "chooser" is required to pick an item out of ONE of the boxes, and God does not decide for them.......by external coercion anyway.
Except that the box with the scorpion has a 4-inch hole in the top that a hand can fit through, and the one with the raspberry tart has a 2mm. gap and inasmuch as the "chooser" is incapable of reaching into the box with the tart he defaults to the scorpion....
Because he isn't capable of getting at the other one anyway because he is constrained by the size of his own hand.

The buzz-phrase is that the atonement is limited in "scope" but not "power"....so, it COULD be efficacious for all, except God doesn't want it to be.

So, he shrinks the hand of the "elect" down to 1mm thus rendering them capable of selecting the raspberry tart...
But, even though he is perfectly capable of doing the same for the non-elect as well, he instead stares at them vainly attempting to take an option they aren't capable of and laughs with glee as they suffer in torment.

That's why you are having a hard time understanding God's "love" for the "non-elect"....
It's because any Theologically consistent person doesn't pretend he loves them.....
Because if that Theology is correct, he doesn't.

Very nicely done. Thanks for that.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

All I got from this is a bunch of thread topics. Can you find a statement from a 5 pointer to back up your first statement ?

In the first thread, the unsaved are referred to as "non-elect" in post #19.

The second thread, post # 10.

and so on…..

 

[Revmitchell]

Recently I posted a question on the love of God and if the elect are the only ones going to heaven then how does God express His love to the non elect.

This is a follow-up on that question. First let me say I totally believe in God's election. However I also believe in free will. In other words I do not believe that He violates our will to save us. He chose and we freely accept=free will.

That being said if the bible clearly states that Christ died for the whole world, not just the elect. 1John 2:2 why do some feel that He does not love the non elect with the same mind as He loves the elect as it was the same atonement?

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!