Featured God's love, is it equal for everyone???

Let me explain better, in the mind of a pharisee

Let me rephrase the meaning or intent

When the Pharisees (a self proclaimed elect) saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners(heathens worldly men)?”


So the Pharisees (a self proclaimed elect) said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world(heathens, sinners, not us elect) has gone after him!”

Exodus 19:
3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. 6 You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

 

None of these verses teach what you purport.

The term "world" almost NEVER has been used to speak of every single person on earth. It most especially has almost NEVER been used to speak of every single person in the history of the world.

Your doctrine is based on a poor hermeneutic. Your post proves it.

 

Instead of making claims why not show proof of what you claim to be true from scripture. Actually this is a bit unfair because what you believe isn't in scripture
MB

 

OP answer:

1. Calvinists believe God's love is different toward the elect vs. the non-elect. Some believe God does not love the non-elect at all.

2. Non-calvinists believe God's love is the same toward all.

Simple...

 

once again, the man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, he doesn't fear God, and he doesn't love God; therefore we conclude that the man who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10) .

 

Gen 12:1-2 Now the Lord said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from the kindred, and from thy fathers house, unto a land i will show thee: and i will make of thee a great nation. Abraham was not a jew at this time of God calling him out from a heathen place called Ur of the land of Chaldees. Genesis chapter 6 verse 8 will show you that when God brought judgement on a wicked world and was about to destroy them, But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Noah was not a Jew.

 

Nor were they elect. Were they saved because they believed God, or were they saved so they could believe God?
MB

 

To say they wasn't elect would deny God made a choice. There was not anything in Abram to recommend him, to cause God to choose him. But you can see that both made a choice, God chose to appear unto Abram but Abram also chose to obey God, Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee.

 

Hmmm... Wonder if God ever said anything about this?

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

But why would people on the "baptist" board want to believe some dusty old book He wrote when they can attribute all their fallacious arguments to Him and ignore what He has so clearly said.

 

Oh yes, I can offer scripture for both views.

I'm simply saying that if we were all either calvinists, or all non-calvinists in our view of soteriology...this debate would be a given:

Cal: God expresses common grace toward all, but salvific love only toward the elect.

Arm: God expresses equal love to all, Their experience of that love depends on their response to it.

 

If man said he loved water, he is not talking about every drip of water he is talking about the water he is drinking or the water he is looking at, He is not like God, he will not like nasty ugly tasting water. Man is nothing like God in love. Man has a lot to learn from God. T

In the passage God so loved the world that is what He is talking about, He loved dirty nasty water like me that He sent His Son. To be perfect as a Father in Heaven is perfect who loved His enemy that He sent His Son to die for them so thart whosever believes in Him will be saved. There is a qualifier it is whosoever believes in His Son will be saved and this faith without deeds is dead, this faith without love is useless.

God ask nothing of us that He isn't willing to do, to love His enemy and while they were still sinners dead man Christ died for them that whosoever believes in His Son will be saved.

 

2 Timothy 2 :
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

2 Peter 1 :
10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family.] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Exodus 19

3 Then Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain and said, “This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you[Or possession, for the whole earth is mine. 6 You] will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Luke 12:9
But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God.

Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

Psalm 69:28
May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous.


I do believe God loved Jacob, not what he has done or what he will do, but what His Son will do being in the line of Jacob that His Election will stand in His Son. What has come down the line of Esau? My hope isn't election for the reasons given above that many want blotted out of His Book by simply reconciling it out. This is the only sure foundation there is.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says:“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

This is the word that motivates me.

Hebrews 3:
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

 

12Strings, thank you for an excellent simplification of one key element of difference.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

Marlarkey

1) No verse cited, simply assertion of falsehood.

2) World (kosmos) is used to refer to organized humanity, thus the Word came into the world, and had made the world, yet the world did not know Him. Here, John 1:10, world refers to humanity and more particularly men who came in contact with Jesus.

3) The charge of poor hermeneutics is baseless. The view asserted (world refers to humanity in John's usage) is the orthodox view. Frequently the world is used to denote hostility to Christ which is contrasted with God's love -giving His Son based on love of the world.

4) Calvinism is based on poor if not non-existent hermeneutics, where the same word means choice here and non choice there, elect here and non-elect there, and so forth and so on.

 

The Gospel was preache to the world of pauls time, So world meant the Roman Empire in that contex period!

World can also refer to the world system in context...

So he is right, and you are wrong again!

 

Yeshua, then do you think the tribal peoples of the americas then had heard the message of Paul and the gospel?

 

Pitchback

You are totally wrong, and as proof, you offered no text to support your position.

1) I am addressing how John, not Paul, used the term. Therefore your observation is non-germane. moot. worthless.

2) John uses kosmos to refer to organized humanity, usually refering to mankind in general in contrast with Christ. Christ came to save the world not condemn it.

 

The Calvinist list of redefined words grows with every post.
1) World
2) Choice
3) Chance
4) Foreknowledge
5) Love, i.e. if God saves a person, that is love, but if a person is not saved, God had no love for them. Total twaddle, God showed his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. God desires all men to be saved. And on and on.

Why anyone would consider these doctrines biblical is beyond reason.

 

While I agree that Abraham was chosen. It still isn't the same as the word "elect" In scripture the only time the word elect is used is to refer to the Jews. Election is the choosing between Jacob and Esau. and this was not for one single person but him and the whole of all of his descendants. God's choosing of Abraham was for a covenant with Abraham because of his obedience. This is why I differ on the use of the word "elect",because scripture uses it differently. Eph 1:4 uses the word chosen. If we as gentiles were elect why the word chosen. I admit they have a similar definition yet Paul in my opinion was showing a difference.
MB