God's Not Dead

[Steven Yeadon]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

That convinced me that using my own story to sell the Gospel was wrong, a topic in another thread I felt I could mention in an aside.

Skimming a book I read once just now I was able to find 2 apologetic arguments to defend the resurrection of Christ that will do nothing but get the skeptic to think.

If Christ did not raise then explain how the 4000 pound stone was moved?

If Christ did not raise and the disciples fabricated the story then why did he first appear to women? Study the culture and authority women had in the first century.

All this in just 3 pages of reading and I am sure there are tons more arguments.

Your problem is that you think a transformer life is all there is but this is not true. It is one argument in defense of the scripture and Christianity yes because the Holy Spirit is at work.

Having been an atheist, the problem here is that if you get a hook in them using their god: reason; Then you have likely failed in the end at converting them. They will love their god of reason over one of the virtues of God: faith. They may go to church every Sunday, go to small groups, and get involved in various ministries as a volunteer, as I did, but inside they are dead. They will not value simple faith in the unseen world and future.

I will pull some stuff out of my own testimony to help:

The biggest issue keeping me from salvation as a baptized man, who thought himself to be a Christian, was my love of science and reason over faith. Because I had received evidence that God exists by getting [three miracles] through two prayers, I figured I had solid proof for God’s existence, and I began to belittle faith as something bad. The truth is that I didn’t want to believe anything on faith. This was because I believed the only way to show the truth was with reason and science. A belief I kept from my atheism. I believed this despite the fact I knew that most Christians went on nearly blind faith when it came to belief in Jesus Christ and His salvation of them. I was also in willful disobedience to a bible verse I knew of, which was Hebrews 11:1. It states: “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”​

So I warn you in your evangelism that you must get them to leave behind their old life and self as atheists and put on the new or you may have lost them regardless of a prayer or decision in the moment.

 

[Revmitchell]

How far is this to be taken?

Was he speaking of political views?
Was he speaking of theological views?
Was he speaking of social views?
Was he speaking of cultural views?

It is to be taken as far as necessary to earn a right to be heard by the lost without compromising the gospel message.

 

[evangelist6589]

That convinced me that using my own story to sell the Gospel was wrong, a topic in another thread I felt I could mention in an aside.



Having been an atheist, the problem here is that if you get a hook in them using their god: reason; Then you have likely failed in the end at converting them. They will love their god of reason over one of the virtues of God: faith. They may go to church every Sunday, go to small groups, and get involved in various ministries as a volunteer, as I did, but inside they are dead. They will not value simple faith in the unseen world and future.

I will pull some stuff out of my own testimony to help:

The biggest issue keeping me from salvation as a baptized man, who thought himself to be a Christian, was my love of science and reason over faith. Because I had received evidence that God exists by getting [three miracles] through two prayers, I figured I had solid proof for God’s existence, and I began to belittle faith as something bad. The truth is that I didn’t want to believe anything on faith. This was because I believed the only way to show the truth was with reason and science. A belief I kept from my atheism. I believed this despite the fact I knew that most Christians went on nearly blind faith when it came to belief in Jesus Christ and His salvation of them. I was also in willful disobedience to a bible verse I knew of, which was Hebrews 11:1. It states: “Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.”​

So I warn you in your evangelism that you must get them to leave behind their old life and self as atheists and put on the new or you may have lost them regardless of a prayer or decision in the moment.

No apologetics is the bait and the law the hook.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Was he speaking of political views?
Was he speaking of theological views?
Was he speaking of social views?
Was he speaking of cultural views?

I hope you don't mind if I take a crack at that from my own perspective. It is clearly anything that is a "disputable matter" (Romans 14:1).

We are not given a specific political system for gentiles in the bible. We are not given a specific set of social mores for gentiles in the bible, although there is a ton of moral commands to be obeyed. We are not given a culture for gentiles to live by in the bible. We are given a ton of truth to be taken on faith, a truth that ultimately is the whole unabridged Gospel of Jesus the Christ.

 

[evangelist6589]

Then stop all this nonsense about this book and that book and stick to God's book! None of the others are God's word!

I never said they were. But they can be very helpful in witnessing. Apologetics the bait and the law the hook.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

No apologetics is the bait and the law the hook.

I am at a loss for this type of evangelism. It may work, and it is no different than the bait Paul used in Athens (Acts 17:22-31). I say though that with atheists the follow up is key. They have no idea how religion works or why people would sing to God. They are little babies in need of being taught how to drink milk and stand.

 

[JonC]

No apologetics is the bait and the law the hook.

And the gospel a sidenote.

This is what is wrong with churches today. Evangelism has become faithless, humanistic recruitment.

What ever happened with simply making disciples using the gospel of Jesus Christ? When did we turn back to the Law to do what Scripture says is already accomplished? Why do we strive to defend the Bible to atheists on their own ground?

Imagine if Churches and Christians ditched programs like WOTM and returned to the biblical principle of being light to a world in darkness by proclaiming the gospel and ONLY the gospel to the world.

 

[JonC]

I am at a loss for this type of evangelism. It may work, and it is no different than the bait Paul used in Athens (Acts 17:22-31). I say though that with atheists the follow up is key. They have no idea how religion works or why people would sing to God. They are little babies in need of being taught how to drink milk and stand.

That's because it is not Christian evangelism.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

And the gospel a sidenote.

This is what is wrong with churches today. Evangelism has become faithless, humanistic recruitment.

What ever happened with simply making disciples using the gospel of Jesus Christ? When did we turn back to the Law to do what Scripture says is already accomplished? Why do we strive to defend the Bible to atheists on their own ground?

Imagine if Churches and Christians ditched programs like WOTM and returned to the biblical principle of being light to a world in darkness by proclaiming the gospel and ONLY the gospel to the world.

I understand how nice your vision of the church sounds, but, from my own PoV, we are commanded by the bible to be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves in one of Jesus' discourses on evangelism (Matthew 10:17). We are also commanded shrewdly use wealth for seemingly evangelistic purposes (Luke 16:1-9). This goes to show as a sampling of verses on the topic that shrewdness is not wrong to use in evangelistic outreach. Paul was shrewd in Athens as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Of course, what we give through our shrewdness is the Gospel.

 

[TCassidy]

I never said they were. But they can be very helpful in witnessing. Apologetics the bait and the law the hook.

Not even close. The Love of God (John 3:16) is the bait and the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) is the hook!

No wonder your "preaching" has been fruitless all these years!

 

[TCassidy]

That convinced me that using my own story to sell the Gospel was wrong, a topic in another thread I felt I could mention in an aside.

Amen! Preach Christ, not Steven.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Not even close. The Love of God (John 3:16) is the bait and the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) is the hook!

No wonder your "preaching" has been fruitless all these years!

I hate to disagree in way Elder, but my reading of the bible seems to indicate that there are many baits to be shrewdly used as Paul did. However, there is only one hook and has been: the love of Jesus shown in the Gospel since we love Him only because He loved us first (1 John 4:19), a love we know to be there on faith.

 

[JonC]

I understand how nice your vision of the church sounds, but, from my own PoV, we are commanded by the bible to be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves in one of Jesus' discourses on evangelism (Matthew 10:17). We are also commanded shrewdly use wealth for seemingly evangelistic purposes (Luke 16:1-9). This goes to show as a sampling of verses on the topic that shrewdness is not wrong to use in evangelistic outreach. Paul was shrewd in Athens as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Of course, what we give through our shrewdness is the Gospel.

We are not commanded to use apologetics in order to convict people under the Law. Paul used cultural expectations - he never adopted them.

The reason my version of church evangelism (make disciples through sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ) sounds nice is because it is what Christ has commanded.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

We are not commanded to use apologetics in order to convict people under the Law. Paul used cultural expectations - he never adopted them.

The reason my version of church evangelism (make disciples through sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ) sounds nice is because it is what Christ has commanded.

I do get that the Law is a lousy hook, it seems more like one of many baits to be used on people for the sake of momentary shrewdness.

Perhaps this reply I had to TCassidy best encapsulates what I believe:

I hate to disagree in way Elder, but my reading of the bible seems to indicate that there are many baits to be shrewdly used as Paul did. However, there is only one hook and has been: the love of Jesus shown in the Gospel since we love Him only because He loved us first (1 John 4:19), a love we know to be there on faith.​

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I do not understand something here everyone. The church uses one bait and hook lately in its study videos like those by Billy Graham. Someone I do not endorse because of his cozy ties to those who do not preach the Gospel such as Roman Catholics. That said, the church tells everyone that sin keeps us form God and heaven, even one sin (the bait). We are saved by the death of Jesus the Christ on the cross who bridged the gap between God and man through his love for us (the hook). Isn't this a simple the Law brings guilt and punishment, and love and the the Cross brings heaven selling point?

 

[JonC]

I do get that the Law is a lousy hook, it seems more like one of many baits to be used on people for the sake of momentary shrewdness.

Perhaps this reply I had to TCassidy best encapsulates what I believe:

I hate to disagree in way Elder, but my reading of the bible seems to indicate that there are many baits to be shrewdly used as Paul did. However, there is only one hook and has been: the love of Jesus shown in the Gospel since we love Him only because He loved us first (1 John 4:19), a love we know to be there on faith.​

And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony a of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony a of God. For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

That's challenging, I'll have to think on it.

 

[rsr]

Oops! What I meant to write was, "Being a disciple of Jesus usually does NOT involve being obnoxious."

Surprising how many folks think it does.

 

[evangelist6589]

I do get that the Law is a lousy hook, it seems more like one of many baits to be used on people for the sake of momentary shrewdness.

Perhaps this reply I had to TCassidy best encapsulates what I believe:

I hate to disagree in way Elder, but my reading of the bible seems to indicate that there are many baits to be shrewdly used as Paul did. However, there is only one hook and has been: the love of Jesus shown in the Gospel since we love Him only because He loved us first (1 John 4:19), a love we know to be there on faith.​

Do not listen to them but be a Berean and check out the other side and compare it to scripture. Comfort has written many books defending the use of the law in Evangelism. Not surprisingly many of the reformers and Puritans also used the law in their Evangelism. Compare to scripture.

 

[JonC]

Do not listen to them but be a Berean and check out the other side and compare it to scripture. Comfort has written many books defending the use of the law in Evangelism. Not surprisingly many of the reformers and Puritans also used the law in their Evangelism. Compare to scripture.

Absolutely. We all have to decide who we will follow, whether men like Ray Comfort or Scripture, the choice is ours.

The issue is that you find people to follow and then turn to Scripture in order to find justification for following them. Start with Scripture. Always start with Scripture.