GOD'S OPERATIONS OF GRACE BUT NO OFFERS OF HIS GRACE pt2

[JesusFan]

Some would insist that the elect are the only ones for whom Christ died while others view Christ's death as hypothetically available to all (an empty offer).

Again, all so called 5 point Calvinists would hold to limited atonement!

 

[Iconoclast]

Again this thread is not dealing with the extent of the atonement.
This thread is speaking to all who believe in Particular Redemption.
The discussion is about what is taking place by what Mr.Hussey. describes as the proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

Again, all so called 5 point Calvinists would hold to limited atonement!

That is not the issue here.see post 22

 

[JonC]

Again, all so called 5 point Calvinists would hold to limited atonement!

Yes, as that is one of the five points.

What I am saying is not all five point Calvinists believe the same.

Some believe Christ died only for the elect (no "offer of salvation" to the non-elect. Some believe Christ died for all, that all could be saved, but also for the elect that they would be saved. Some view God as electing men before the Fall, others out of Fallen men. These things affect doctrine.

There are a lot of differences within Calvinism (not just 5 point vs 4 point).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

May I plead with posters not to foul up this thread as the last one was fouled up.
There are plenty of other threads on which to discuss Calvinism. Why not leave this one for the subject of the O.P.?

Please!

 

[JonC]

@Martin Marprelate . What you describe in your post above is what I thought Hussey meant by wrong types of offers. But from what I've read of that article Iconoclast put up it seems Hussey goes much farther. He is against any kind of proposition made to people that IF they respond to the gospel they will be saved and IF they don't they will not be saved. The idea being that you are making the salvation of folks depend upon the person and then salvation is not all of God. The "if" is emphasized in the sense that everything now hinges upon what the person does. I came across Owen writing on this and he seemed to explain this by saying basically that as a good Calvinist, you believe that when God's Spirit moves on someone (who is elect by the way), it is an inevitable fact that they will respond and believe the gospel. Their response of faith and repentance are "conditions" in the sense that without them happening they are not saved - but they are not conditions in the sense that everything hinges on the persons decision. According to Owen it is going to happen because of God. I could be wrong on this but I'm trying to sort this all out. I have not read much of this type of writing (Hussey).

I fully agree with you and I'm sure Hussey would agree that the modern tendency to offer God as an improver of your marriage or an assistant in giving you a happier, healthier life is totally wrong. Not to mention the techniques used like telling moving stories or using music to create a mood to get a decision. But from what I've read of the article it seems Hussey goes way further than that.

It looks like Hussey's article is a reaction to what he sees as poor theology, but he may be going just as far beyond Scripture in the opposite direction.

Often our reactions to what we find incorrect becomes overreaction.

 

[JonC]

He will give His efficacious blood and His Holy Spirit, after another manner, to whom He pleases. This is the Gospel of the Kingdom;

Is this the Gospel of the Kingdom....that He gives His blood and Spirit to whom He pleases?

1 Corinthians 15:1–4 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

 

[Iconoclast]

So far the Gospel of the Kingdom he is writing about seems to be an announcement of the kingly rule of God worldwide.
The accomplishment of Redemption, and the certain doom of the reprobates. He is just starting to clarify.

 

[JonC]

So far the Gospel of the Kingdom he is writing about seems to be an announcement of the kingly rule of God worldwide.
The accomplishment of Redemption, and the certain doom of the reprobates. He is just starting to clarify.

But is the gospel of the Kingdom the certain doom of the "reprobates"?

 

[Iconoclast]

But is the gospel of the Kingdom the certain doom of the "reprobates"?

He is just starting to offer his case after sending several shots over the bow in his introductory remarks.

Is there any scenerio in which reprobates are not doomed? How does that happen that they escape dying in their sins?

He has made several comments already..here from post 2 on this thread he gives indication of it;

‘Tis to me! To me a sinner! To me a vile worm! It is a melting thought within me that the Kingdom-Sceptre should be a Marriage-Sceptre unto me, which, in the hand of Christ as a Judge, is an iron sceptre unto others.

{“But unto the Son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.” Heb.1:8.

“Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” Psal.2:9.}


The Holy Ghost now accompanies this distinguishing Gospel, because it is Truth. But he never goes along with men's sermonizing, because it's flattery and falsehood;

IF I am reading this correctly ,He only see's these two outcomes. I will look back to pt1, I think he referenced 2cor.2
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

from pt1;
So the Jews had it preached to them, Acts 28:31, and the elect of God among the Gentiles had it preached thus to them, openly, in the face of the times, as it was preaching of the kingdom of God, or God's will, who would have the election to obtain it, Rom.11:7, though the rest were blinded;
and it should be done, whether the world would or no. “And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom,” says he, to them at Ephesus, “preaching the kingdom of God.” Acts 20:25. Oh! This kingdom of God, this sovereignty, this same I will, and ye shall, among the people, makes man's free-will to buckle, and puts Satan's kingdom under daily contribution. When men were sent forth by the Holy Ghost, Acts 13:4, they preached the Word of God to hearers of whom they might be morally confident would oppose, instead of receive the truth as it is in Jesus.

The Holy Ghost saith that “he shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” Luke 1:32. Well then, shall not enemies hear of his kingdom, as well as the elect of God hear of his Salvation? He shall be called the Son of the Highest.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hence, when the Evangelist gives an account of the preaching of the Gospel, he tells us, that all the cities had the Gospel preached in them. Acts 8:40.

Likewise it came to pass, from this Universal Kingship of the Lord Jesus, {“and hath put all things under his feet,” Eph.1:22,}

that kings themselves were exhorted to submit to Christ, Psal.2:10-12, as a greater King than themselves, and were foretold they should lay their hands upon their mouths, and not utter a word against it. {“So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.” Isa.52:15.}

For God will have it so, or he will pull them out of their thrones as he hath not only threatened, but performed, both to Pagan and Papal monarchs. {“I will shake the heavens and the earth; and I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen.” Hag.2:21- 22.}


Quite often where the Gospel of the Kingdom has been resisted, Psal.107:40,

40 He poureth contempt upon princes, and causeth them to wander in the wilderness, where there is no way.

the LORD then hath destroyed the bloody instruments that did it, whilst he hath been saving his chosen by the Gospel, in giving drink, says he, Isa.43:20, “to my people, my chosen.” And whilst he has taken upon him to “avenge his own elect which cry day and night unto him,” Lk.18:7, the Gospel is a Gospel of Free Grace to His elect, and in it is displayed Christ's full prerogative, both as to them and all the world besides. Thus the Lord our Righteousness, Jer.23:6, will carry it on amidst the world, even his Gospel, as the proclamation of a Sovereign and Uncontrollable King, the High Magistrate, Justice and Judge, who will have his own laws stand, and make all other laws stoop and give way to His. We must preach Christ thus; and this indeed is good news to the elect, {hid for some time amongst the rest,} to strengthen their hearts.


Yes... his definition of the Gospel of the Kingdom sounds as if It is total victory for the elect, and a judgement that divides the sheep from the goats, before the sheep and goat judgment.There is an strong element of truth in this presentation, however Mr. Hussey has to demonstrate why he thinks the means of grace are not employed in time.

 

[Iconoclast]

CHAPTER SIX

Some distinct resolutions of the puzzling question; how must we preach the Gospel to sinners,
if we do not offer the Gospel to sinners?


We must preach the Gospel as the things of it are in Christ, by a Settlement of God the Father.
We must preach the Gospel so as to honour and commend the Father's love, Matt.11:27, and that in his choosing the elect in Christ before the foundation of the world. {“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.” Eph.1:4.}

Here is a special sort of union in God's act. Now preaching the Gospel is carrying the Gospel altogether, as it stands in all parts of it, fulfilling of our ministry, Acts 20:24, with this election-union.
Offers agree not with election-union; for though men who talk of offers may hold election faintly, Jer.2:19, yet it is very little they hold, and none of it in the strength of Christ; neither do they live by the doctrine they pretend to hold, notwithstanding all their pretended temptations they have to drop it; as men so warped, did for forty years of the last century, who only prepared matters for this generation for men to deny election, and hate it the more in the present day; and very few of these offering-men who pretend to hold election do seek heartily to take part with God therein, Rom.16:17;

but men sleep and nod, till perhaps the noise of a book is got out among them, that lays the sleepy disease for a time, Matt.25:5, and in a few weeks it all wears off, and then to nodding again.
Whatever it be, it's plain that some who pretend to hold election, do it halfheartedly; for they insist not upon election-union, or the election of Grace, as it stands in the Everlasting Covenant in Christ Jesus.

And then as if a creature could be chosen in Christ before believing on Christ, and yet that there could be no Election-Union of that creature, nor Justification, and other Grace given him comprehensively in Christ, before his believing on him. {“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.” II Tim.1:9.}

 

[Iconoclast]

124
The term “in Christ” is used in scripture, under a diversity of comprehensive phrases, as in II Tim.2:1, “thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.” Eph.1:3, “blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

{Justification of the Elect is in Christ before believing.} We have, therefore, all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, conferred upon us in Christ our Covenant Head already. So II Cor.5:29, “to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.”

The second phrase of the Holy Ghost to express it is “in the Lord.” Isa.45:24, “surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength.” So, Isa.45:17, “but Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation.” Isa.61:10, “I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.”


Another phrase of the Holy Ghost is, “in Him.” The places are II Tim.1:9; Col.1:19; Jn.1:4; II Cor.1:20; Col.2:10; Eph.1:4, which speech “in Him” is meant in Christ; and in some of the places named it's meant of Election-Union, viz., II Tim.1:9; Eph.1:4 and 123 Col.2:10, the phrase in those places implies a distinct mystery of the Union far beyond the mystery of it in the letter, or in respect of instrumental union, which we have sensibly in Christ, by the conveyance of the Life of Grace, when Faith comes.


And that this Election-Union, the root of all the other unions, is so great and deep a Mystery of Grace, appears by what is said of it in the same phrase, “in Him” in two other places of Scripture, Colossians 3:3 & John 14:20. The phrase “in Him” in the other texts mentioned doth not strictly import the Election-Union of our persons in Christ, but something else in Christ.


Yet it's still a comprehension of phrase, as I designed, that takes in the other Settlements of God the Father which he appointed in Christ, though they are distinct from the election of our persons in Him. Particularly, that place, John 1:4, “in him was life; and the life was the light of men,” which discovers that all fulness of nature, and the common blessings of life, are all settled in Christ. The other place, Col.1:19, “for it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell,” speaks more comprehensively, as the extensive fulness of Nature, Grace, and Glory which dwells in Christ by the Father's settlements. {“Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Heb.1:3.}

Then lastly, that text, II Cor.1:20, “for all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us,” comprehending the perfect unity, harmony, and stability of all the promises founded of God in Him. II Pet.1:4. Thus, as the Father's Settlements stand, all is sure in Christ. But now as to Electing-Grace, the Father's Settlement makes us one in Christ, as the Union is a root, or radical interest, that in time brings forth our conversion. II Cor.5:18. It is said, Proverbs 12:12, “the root of the righteous yieldeth fruit.” Who is the root of the righteous but Christ? The true Messiah is here distinguished from the wicked one. Matt.13:38. For its plain, that all the righteous ones are first comprehended as righteous in Christ, even as branches in a common root that bears them. {“And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek;; and his 124 rest shall be glorious.” Isa.11:10.} There is a notable comprehending phrase in Acts 26:18, “to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

 

[JonC]

He is just starting to offer his case after sending several shots over the bow in his introductory remarks.

Is there any scenerio in which reprobates are not doomed? How does that happen that they escape dying in their sins?

I agree they are condemned. And you are right - there are only two outcomes (saved, escape the wrath to come or condemned, suffer the judgment).

But their condemnation has nothing to do with the kingdom or the gospel. They were condemned already - the gospel is the "good news" that men may escape that wrath to come, that "doom".

John 3:17–21 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 “This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 “For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 “But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

 

[JonC]

124
The term “in Christ” is used in scripture, under a diversity of comprehensive phrases, as in II Tim.2:1, “thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.” Eph.1:3, “blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.”

{Justification of the Elect is in Christ before believing.} We have, therefore, all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, conferred upon us in Christ our Covenant Head already. So II Cor.5:29, “to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.”

The author makes an error here. He is looking to Scripture to support his ideas rather than accepting Scripture for what it actually says (as a whole, i.e., in its own context).

He takes one part of a passage (2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them) to prove his idea that the elect were justified prior to belief, but he ignores the passage as a whole (as it would disprove his position).

Here is the passage:

2 Corinthians 5:18–21

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[JonC]

I am curious, looking at Hussey's bio, if things were not rushed with him (if he was adequately trained and mentored in the word, prior to becoming pastor).

I have noticed this with many older writers, but it seems a lot depended on their public appeal and natural talents over a mature faith.

Hussey was saved at 26 years old, became a pastor at 28. While time may not matter (it may, though), it seems that he looked to Scripture to find support for a system of belief he had adopted or was taught. Some of his use of Scripture is not appropriate (it does not support his ideas if taken in its own context).

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

He takes one part of a passage (2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them) to prove his idea that the elect were justified prior to belief, but he ignores the passage as a whole (as it would disprove his position).

Only elect persons scattered throughout the world, do not have

not counting their trespasses against them)

Their trespasses counted against them. Those at the white throne are going to have each and every trespass counted against them.

THAT is why we are sent as Ambassadors for Christ with the word of reconciliation making an appeal.

 

[JonC]

JonC,


Only elect persons scattered throughout the world, do not have Their trespasses counted against them. Those at the white throne are going to have each and every trespass counted against them.

THAT is why we are sent as Ambassadors for Christ with the word of reconciliation making an appeal.

But that is not what the passage says.

The passage says that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Hussey says we were already justified.

At best, Hussey is correct but misapplies the passage. But it is still problematic in that Hussey's statement is contrary to the passage as a whole.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is a notable comprehending phrase in Acts 26:18, “to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”

This goes deep into the mystery of the Pardon of Sin,
for it takes in forgiveness,
both as already prepared,
without which it could not be forgiveness,
and forgiveness bestowed,
without which it could not be received.

Receiving it implies clearly that the thing received was made ready in the fulness of Christ, and had a being in Christ, as ours by Free Grace, long before our receiving it. Besides, if things {as if all the blessings wherewith we are blessed in heavenly places} be in Christ before they by him and through him, then sure they must be in Christ, before there can be faith on Christ, or before what the Holy Ghost calls faith into Christ.


As the same, Acts 26:18, hath it, “by faith that is in me,” {or as it is in the original, “by faith into me,”} says Christ there to Paul, in giving him his commission to go and preach the Gospel successfully to the Gentiles.

But now, when men have gone and preached against these eternal truths, and they know they have, to this day, sermons lying by them quite opposite to the doctrines of eternal election, or what we call the first truths; alas, here is their temptation, for though they may of their error be a little convinced, they do not find in their hearts {one of a score of them} to venture for Christ, and go and alter their tone! They had rather stick by their empty notions of offers, &c. {“Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, they do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.” Heb.3:10.} They are run into offers of Christ, and there they think to keep.

Now offers of Christ do stand directly with the anti-union doctrine, and the anti-election doctrine, and the anti-comprehending doctrine; and all to give more honour to Faith, the creature's act, than they give to the Father's own act in Election-Grace. Men have got an anti-scriptural maxim about election. What is that? Why it is, say they, election neither gives, nor takes away anything; neither fixes a thing nor removes it; a pretty election indeed, but that is a mistake

Here Mr. Hussey starts to try and solidify his case, right or wrong he is taking his stand.

 

[Iconoclast]

But that is not what the passage says.

The passage says that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Hussey says we were already justified.

At best, Hussey is correct but misapplies the passage. But it is still problematic in that Hussey's statement is contrary to the passage as a whole.

It is what the passage says when correctly understood. An Ambasssador....DECLARES..the message of the King. He is not free to change the message.
You are reading the word "might" as contingent, rather than actual.