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GOD'S OPERATIONS OF GRACE BUT NO OFFERS OF HIS GRACE pt2

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JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It’s right there in that quote my friend. :)

"Now offers of Christ suit not with this doctrine of Eternal Union, but agree best with that doctrine of proud nature, which denies all sorts of Union before Faith."
And here :

Justification of the Elect is in Christ before believing.} We have, therefore, all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, conferred upon us in Christ our Covenant Head already.
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
OK. So the view of Joseph Hussey was that the elect are justified before believing. Now in fairness to Primitive Baptists and other high Calvinists who believe this I will say that their theology does not teach that therefore it is unnecessary that a person believe at all - that this is just a matter of soteriology and order and that at some point they must believe, and will most certainly believe because God's will will be done, for sure, and therefore can be considered necessary in that sense.

If he is saying that we go too far in trying to convince and manually cause conviction and awakening in lost people he may have a point at least in some degree. But he seems adamant about all "offers" or propositional statements about the gospel. He would be OK with saying "Christ was crucified according to the scriptures and rose again". But he would object to saying "Christ was crucified and rose again and if you will repent of your sins and trust in Christ you will be saved". That would be too much of an offer. Am I right in this?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
OK. So the view of Joseph Hussey was that the elect are justified before believing. Now in fairness to Primitive Baptists and other high Calvinists who believe this I will say that their theology does not teach that therefore it is unnecessary that a person believe at all - that this is just a matter of soteriology and order and that at some point they must believe, and will most certainly believe because God's will will be done, for sure, and therefore can be considered necessary in that sense.

If he is saying that we go too far in trying to convince and manually cause conviction and awakening in lost people he may have a point at least in some degree. But he seems adamant about all "offers" or propositional statements about the gospel. He would be OK with saying "Christ was crucified according to the scriptures and rose again". But he would object to saying "Christ was crucified and rose again and if you will repent of your sins and trust in Christ you will be saved". That would be too much of an offer. Am I right in this?
That is a good point. I don't know enough of Primitive Baptist doctrine, but it would be incorrect to assume Hussey defines their belief (I know hyper-Calvinism is diverse, also).
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, but what I not sure about is whether Hussey is saying that "Eternal Union" is equivalent to eternal justification. Theologically the reformers seemed all over the place on this. I know that the classic definition of a hyper-Calvinist would include a belief in either eternal justification or at least justification from the time of the crucifixion but have you seen explicit eternal justification in Hussey's writing? I'm not meaning this as a challenge it's just that there is such a volume of writing I'm having trouble keeping it straight and I don't remember having found it in this article. It is interesting though.
That is why I am going to keep letting Hussey develop his thought,
I am highlighting some of quotes that we can go to work on in the meantime.
 

SovereignGrace

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Site Supporter
A mere 7 verses on down:

8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5

Blows my mind how so many are unable to see beyond their programming. You 'Reformed' are the worst.
Well, to be justified means to be declared righteous in the site of God by the imputed righteousness of Christ. If we are eternally justified then we are eternally saved and never lost and fallen in Adam.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Then what happened at the cross? Do you not believe Christ paid your sin debt? If you are legally "debt free" in regards to sin (it was paid over 2000 years ago) then from what do you need saving? You were, legally, born without sin accounted to you.
he atoned and paid for all of my sins, but I was not justified and saved until received Him thru faith, how about you?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
And here :

Justification of the Elect is in Christ before believing.} We have, therefore, all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, conferred upon us in Christ our Covenant Head already.
But not actual conferred unto us until we are justified and saved in Christ!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
he atoned and paid for all of my sins, but I was not justified and saved until received Him thru faith, how about you?
Again, saved from what if not the wrath to come (as your sins debt was paid centuries before you were born)?

If Christ was punished for your sins instead of you, who cares if you are justified as God has nothing to hold against you to say otherwise?
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Again, saved from what if not the wrath to come (as your sins debt was paid centuries before you were born)?

If Christ was punished for your sins instead of you, who cares if you are justified as God has nothing to hold against you to say otherwise?
I was born still in a fallen state and needed to receive Lord Jesus in order to confirm and prove and validate that was elected of God, how about you?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
But not actual conferred unto us until we are justified and saved in Christ!
If somebody pays your bill and rather than waiting you sneak out there is no crime committed....your bill is paid.

What has to be conferred? You were born legally sinless.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
If somebody pays your bill and rather than waiting you sneak out there is no crime committed....your bill is paid.

What has to be conferred? You were born legally sinless.
Until received, have hugh bank account, but not yet in my name!
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, but what I not sure about is whether Hussey is saying that "Eternal Union" is equivalent to eternal justification. Theologically the reformers seemed all over the place on this. I know that the classic definition of a hyper-Calvinist would include a belief in either eternal justification or at least justification from the time of the crucifixion but have you seen explicit eternal justification in Hussey's writing? I'm not meaning this as a challenge it's just that there is such a volume of writing I'm having trouble keeping it straight and I don't remember having found it in this article. It is interesting though.
It’s a conflation of election with justification. Election was before He said “Let there be light”, justification takes place in time.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
132
The elect are to receive under our preaching, if we are ministers of Christ, the special gift of the Father, in bestowing his Christ and Salvation on them; yea, and all that accompanies the Salvation of God with Christ.

Whereas, if ministers in their errand stand proffering the Grace of God to poor sinners, they do not preach in and through Christ, but only hold forth something in a general way concerning Christ. And so bring no more Salvation ministerially to the elect, than they bring or show to the non-elect, and what a gross abuse of the elect is this by them who seem to profess election! The non-elect have the common notion of Salvation already concerning Christ; that is, they have the common doctrine of the Gospel, that Jesus Christ died for sinners, that they are sinners, and the like. Therefore the common salvation concerning Christ in the Doctrine is theirs, that is, convenient, appointed number of the non-elect believe with a temporary faith, a rational faith, an external faith concerning Christ, which is faith made providentially serviceable, as a sort of barrier or external defence placed round about the inward glory of the Sanctuary, as to what is effectual through Christ, in the converted number of the absolute elect of God.



What is taught concerning Christ in externals is made of great use towards that which is taught through Christ in internals. Thus in all ages, especially since the times of Constantine the first Christian Emperor, God hath made use of men who have had but a name to live, Rev.3:1, and have been but ly and externally converted to the Faith, and to but some of it neither concerning Christ, to be a sort of earth to help the woman, Rev.12:16, and do a kindness to the Church, that hath been converted through him unto Himself. As for the Church, so far as made up of the true elect of God, {I mean such as were chosen in Christ to everlasting life before the foundation of the world, Eph.1:4, and not chosen merely to common faith and privileges, as the son of perdition, Jn.17:2, Judas was,} have comparatively in all ages been but a handful. Now such a small number could no ways have visibly subsisted by the common methods of Providence, if the Lord had not made use of others to help them, and render the external interest of the Gospel in the world in things concerning Christ, some ways capable of resisting the spiteful opposition of Jew and Pagan. Hence, the first preaching of the Gospel was attended with miracles, which were as a suitable means to work a common belief of the Gospel concerning Christ, upon the non-elect, as to work the same common belief upon the elect of God themselves. And most certainly this method was taken, next to the good pleasure of God, that there might be brought into the outworks a great company of outer-court people to believe the Gospel with a general faith concerning Christ, and such a faith as common education and general instruction hath kept up in the world ever since. Nevertheless at that day formally, the Spirit of God in a common way did make the general preaching of the Gospel concerning Christ, a means to work a general faith upon Jew and Pagan; and by a common work of the Spirit in all ages since, men have sprung up into the same common faith, partly by education and precept of men, partly by example and interest of the world, &c. For all the first prejudices to the Gospel concerning Christ in the lump are clean gone out of these parts of the world, which yet were strong prejudices in that former day by a contrary education, example, preposition, &c., and so there was a greater common work of the Spirit upon men in that day as necessary to bring them up to the common faith in Christianity. This common and general faith and reception of the Gospel in the general lump concerning Christ was needful in all nations to carry on God's work more covertly under the fair show of the out-works, and more particularly within and under this general entertainment of the Gospel by Jew and Pagan. So that hereby Conversion Power in the glory of the Gospel, hid itself as under a veil, to another end, while the souls of the elect were so secretly discriminated, as that all the world should not be capable of judging about the mystery, since the elect of God as to their natural condition and external character were close fastened to all this lump and cluster of mankind, in matters concerning Christ. And hence the first preaching of the Gospel was answerable to the state of the Jewish and Pagan world, for both were set against the very notion of the Gospel.
 
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