God's Purpose Accord to Election

[Reformed]

I think the both of you are conflating the sanctification of the Spirit and the process of sanctification (often called progressive sanctification). The two are not the same.

In the Monergist Ordo Salutis sanctification comes after justification. Why? Philippians 1:6 sheds some light on this:

Philippians 1:6 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The Apostle Paul expands on this a bit further in Philippians 3:

Philippians 3:12-14 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Once we become a child of God, through the sanctification of the Spirit and the new birth, we are just like John Bunyan's character "Pilgrim" in Pilgrim's Progress. We are now disciples of Jesus Christ and are in the process of being conformed to His image. In other words, we are in the process of being sanctified or made holy. This is the point the Apostle Peter was making:

1 Peter 1:13-16 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

We currently are imperfect disciples. We still sin and fall short of what God expects of us. Someone once wrote, "We are not sinless, but we should sin less." The Christian life should see us becoming more and more like Christ as we mature. Once again, the Apostle Paul offers insight:

Ephesians 4:22-24 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

In summary, the Reformed or Monergist Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) recognizes the process by which the believer becomes more like Christ. That is why it is placed directly before the final part of the Ordo Salutis, glorification.

 

[37818]

Oh, I agree.


Oh, I disagree for reasons stated previously.

Ok. Do you know why I said sanctification precedes regeneration? Can you show that is not true?

 

[37818]

I think the both of you are conflating the sanctification of the Spirit and the process of sanctification (often called progressive sanctification). The two are not the same.

In the Monergist Ordo Salutis sanctification comes after justification. Why? Philippians 1:6 sheds some light on this:

Philippians 1:6 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

The Apostle Paul expands on this a bit further in Philippians 3:

Philippians 3:12-14 12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Once we become a child of God, through the sanctification of the Spirit and the new birth, we are just like John Bunyan's character "Pilgrim" in Pilgrim's Progress. We are now disciples of Jesus Christ and are in the process of being conformed to His image. In other words, we are in the process of being sanctified or made holy. This is the point the Apostle Peter was making:

1 Peter 1:13-16 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

We currently are imperfect disciples. We still sin and fall short of what God expects of us. Someone once wrote, "We are not sinless, but we should sin less." The Christian life should see us becoming more and more like Christ as we mature. Once again, the Apostle Paul offers insight:

Ephesians 4:22-24 22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

In summary, the Reformed or Monergist Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) recognizes the process by which the believer becomes more like Christ. That is why it is placed directly before the final part of the Ordo Salutis, glorification.

Sanctification starts with God (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). And the saved are sanctified.

 

[Reformed]

Do you actually read what people write and understand what they are saying?

Sanctification starts with God (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). And the saved are sanctified.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Yeshua1]

Our disagreement is a Biblical one. For one, sanctification precedes regenerstion.

Unless the Lord regenerates us first, neither justification nor sanctification will ever happen!

 

[Dave G]

I think the both of you are conflating the sanctification of the Spirit and the process of sanctification (often called progressive sanctification). The two are not the same.

@Dave Gilbert * Gets out his handy dictionary and looks up the word, "conflate" *

Hmmm..." Fuse together", "combine", "mix together", "blend".
Got it.

Yep, that's what I was doing alright.
However, it was very helpful that you told me I was "conflating", because it prompted me to look at the rest of what God's word says about sanctification.

Here we go some more:

" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 ) <------ This happened at the cross.

" Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." ( 1 Peter 1:1-2 ) <----- Again, this happened at the cross.


I also see that believers are then "sanctified" in their walk and in their growth:

" If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, [and] prepared unto every good work." ( 2 Timothy 2:21 ) <----- This happens as the believer grows in grace and knowledge.

" For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 that no [man] go beyond and defraud his brother in [any] matter: because that the Lord [is] the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 ) <----- Same here.

And in these:

Colossians 3.

Galatians 5:13-26.

Ephesians 4:17-32

" Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." ( 2 Corinthians 7:1 )

And now I'm done.
I agree with both of you.

The way I see things,
Sanctification of the believer ( in the eyes of God the Father ) happened at the cross, and precedes regeneration.
Sanctification in our walk occurs in our lifetimes, and succeeds regeneration.

I "con"cede the floor.




May God bless you richly.

 

[37818]

Unless the Lord regenerates us first, neither justification nor sanctification will ever happen!

i hold the view point faith precedes regeneration. (Acts 16:31; Romans 10;13-14; Romans 10:9; etc). But that sanctification precedes the gospel call (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

 

[Yeshua1]

i hold the view point faith precedes regeneration. (Acts 16:31; Romans 10;13-14; Romans 10:9; etc). But that sanctification precedes the gospel call (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

I know, but regeneration must occur first....

 

[37818]

I know, but regeneration must occur first....

According to what Holy Scripture? Unless one is sanctified into obedience the truth will not be believed

 

[Dave G]

Unless one is sanctified into obedience the truth will not be believed

And unless one is a sheep, they will not believe ( John 10:26 )
Unless they are ordained to eternal life, they will not believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )
Unless they experience the work of God, they will not believe ( John 6:29 )
If they are not given to Him by the Father, they will not come to Him in belief ( John 6:37, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ).
If a person is not "of God", they will not "hear" His words ( John 8:47 )
If it is not given to a person to believe, they will not believe ( Philippians 1:29 )

I hold the view that regeneration precedes faith...by a very small margin.
But I once believed that faith preceded regeneration.

 

[Reformed]

Faith cannot precede regeneration because the sinner is spiritually dead and not able to believe (Rom. 3:11, 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13). Regeneration occurs when the Holy Spirit makes the heart and mind able to believe (Eph. 2:5). If the sinner is left to his own devices he will never seek or choose God. This is the fundamental difference between Monergism and Synergism. Monergism views predestination and election as God's salvific will accomplished without any condition on the part of the Elect. Synergism requires the condition of faith on the part of the Elect prior to regeneration. These two different views are irreconcilable.

 

[Rockson]

And unless one is a sheep, they will not believe ( John 10:26 )

Nope Dave. It's really if they choose not to listen to his voice. Such makes them not his sheep not something long before predetermined. In fact to one and all LOOK....to the very ones he said in Jn 10:26 that they were not his sheep he gave an encouragement 12 verses later to become such!

Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” John 10:38

That's not the equivalent to exhorting them to come into the place of truly KNOWING GOD which would make them .....HIS SHEEP?

 

[Dave G]

Nope Dave. It's really if they choose not to listen to his voice. Such makes them not his sheep not something long before predetermined. In fact to one and all LOOK....to the very ones he said in Jn 10:26 that they were not his sheep he gave an encouragement 12 verses later to become such!

All men inherently choose not to listen to God's voice.
It's in our nature.
Please see Romans chapters 1-3.

Here's the passage in John again:

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:24-18 )


I know that's how you currently see it ( as I once did ), but I no longer do, Rockson.
One day, something leaped out in the text as I was reading...two things:

1) They didn't believe Christ's words when He earlier told them that He was the Christ. See verse 25, which I've underlined.
2) He then tells them is verse 26 why they didn't believe...because they were not "of His Sheep".

Then He tells them that His sheep "hear" His voice....He knows them and they follow Him.
You don't find it odd that Christ would tell someone that does not believe in Him, why they do not?
I do.
It's for the benefit of the reader.

What's more, I now see that the reason that the Lord told them:

" Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him." ( John 10:31-38 )


Because it was necessary to speak the Gospel first to the Jews as a nation ( Acts of the Apostles 13:46 ), and then it would go forth to the Gentiles.


May He bless you, sir.

 

[37818]

And unless one is a sheep, they will not believe ( John 10:26 )
Unless they are ordained to eternal life, they will not believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )
Unless they experience the work of God, they will not believe ( John 6:29 )
If they are not given to Him by the Father, they will not come to Him in belief ( John 6:37, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ).
If a person is not "of God", they will not "hear" His words ( John 8:47 )
If it is not given to a person to believe, they will not believe ( Philippians 1:29 )

I hold the view that regeneration precedes faith...by a very small margin.
But I once believed that faith preceded regeneration.

Yet not one of those references teach regeneration prior to faith. Not a one.

 

[JonC]

I disagree with the whole thread - both sides. We don't get to vote on God's purposes.

 

[37818]

Faith cannot precede regeneration because the sinner is spiritually dead and not able to believe (Rom. 3:11, 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:1; Col. 2:13). Regeneration occurs when the Holy Spirit makes the heart and mind able to believe (Eph. 2:5). If the sinner is left to his own devices he will never seek or choose God. This is the fundamental difference between Monergism and Synergism. Monergism views predestination and election as God's salvific will accomplished without any condition on the part of the Elect. Synergism requires the condition of faith on the part of the Elect prior to regeneration. These two different views are irreconcilable.

Sanctification precedes faith. Because it is in sanctification into obedience (1 Peter 1:2) Faith precedes salvation (Acts 16:31).

 

[Dave G]

I disagree with the whole thread - both sides. We don't get to vote on God's purposes.

I agree.
No one gets to vote on who is saved and who isn't ( Romans 9:14-18 ), and God is the one whose will gets followed when a person is born again ( John 1:13 ).
No one gets to vote on His purposes, because He does what He will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ).

But does He tell us what some of those purposes are?

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:
11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 in whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." ( Ephesians 1:3-14 )

Here I see that God the Father's purposes are manyfold:

1) He has chosen the believer "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, so that they should be holy and without blame before Him in love.
2) He predestinated ( set their destiny, chose their final place ) to the adoption of children, by Christ Jesus, to Himself...which is according to the good pleasure of HIS will.
3) Why? So that the whole thing should be to the praise of the glory of His grace, which the believer is made, by God, to be accepted in the beloved.

There's quite a bit here, but I've only put down what I've seen in the first 4 verses.
His purposes for those who believe.

" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
11 ( for [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." ( Romans 9:6-13 )

Yet another passage where one of the the purposes of God are made known...
The purpose of election ( God's choosing ).



That is what this thread is about, isn't it?

 

[Rockson]

All men inherently choose not to listen to God's voice.
It's in our nature.
Please see Romans chapters 1-3.

Do scriptures like you quote in Romans mean that absolutely no one seeks God? Or is he rather just giving a list of things sinners can be prone to do or not do? Does each and every sinner do they have a mouth full of cursing? Are their feet swift to shed blood?

If we say nobody in the country or in Hollywood is seeking God anymore....do we mean nobody can't? And do we mean that there's absolutely no one at all in an absolute sense of the word? Or is he rather meaning humanity isn't usually prone to especially at different times.

Here's the passage in John again:

"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand." ( John 10:24-18 )

[My sheep hear my voice] Dave think of a sports coach. He says, "My players listen to my instructions." Does that mean they didn't have to choose to? And because they choose to they become what===>His players. If you're going to be honored to be called my players you must comply. This is what my players do! They listen to instructions of the coach and obey them! Now I'd suggest here's the key.

He says but you believe not because you are not my sheep BUT...keep in mind that believe is a verb which means an action. That means you could say BUT you're not obedient because you already have within you to resist me as your coach. My players (or sheep) have the characteristic of wanting to listen and carry out my wishes.

You don't so therefore you're not my sheep. BUT such doesn't mean they couldn't have or sorry you've just lucked out. Now I showed you about 12 verses later Jesus exhorted these very people of whom he said they were not his sheep with the following,

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him." ( John 10:31-38 )

Look at what he said! He said though you believe not me, in other words...the usual way of becoming a sheep is by believing my word....BUT....look....if you're not going to do that then at least you should look at the works and let that be convincing to you! Convince them of what? Convincing them that the Father is in him and I in him! So....if language means anything he started off by telling them they were not his sheep and that's where Calvinists stop reading. But he still said with great longing the thought of "Look you can still become my sheep. If you look at the works it should convince you and being convinced in turn you'll believe me words! Thus becoming HIS SHEEP. Now friend Dave....I pointed this out to you and you responded with what's below,

Because it was necessary to speak the Gospel first to the Jews as a nation ( Acts of the Apostles 13:46 ), and then it would go forth to the Gentiles.

Dave what does that have to do with anything that was said? Sorry but isn't that really a diversion not willing to deal with the text?

 

[Dave G]

Yet not one of those references teach regeneration prior to faith. Not a one.

Quite right, and I agree.
None of those passages objectively states when regeneration actually takes place.

But I think that this one does:

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved" ( Ephesians 2:4-5 )

" And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" ( Colossians 2:13 )

"Quickening" ( being made alive in Christ by the Holy Spirit ) happened when we were dead in trespasses and sins...See the parable of the lost son.


" But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light." ( Ephesians 5:13-14 )



Here I see that God changed our nature, before giving us light, as believers.

 

[Yeshua1]

And unless one is a sheep, they will not believe ( John 10:26 )
Unless they are ordained to eternal life, they will not believe ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 )
Unless they experience the work of God, they will not believe ( John 6:29 )
If they are not given to Him by the Father, they will not come to Him in belief ( John 6:37, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ).
If a person is not "of God", they will not "hear" His words ( John 8:47 )
If it is not given to a person to believe, they will not believe ( Philippians 1:29 )

I hold the view that regeneration precedes faith...by a very small margin.
But I once believed that faith preceded regeneration.

The regeneration is when God gives to the elect saving faith to believe unto jesus and get saved!