Election is Ephesians 1:4. It is unmerited. In the Monergist ordo salutis justification comes after election. It is also unmerited. All my previous posts either make this point directly or strongly infer it.
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God's Purpose Accord to Election
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Election is Ephesians 1:4. It is unmerited. In the Monergist ordo salutis justification comes after election. It is also unmerited. All my previous posts either make this point directly or strongly infer it.
Paul writes of Abraham in Romans 4:
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Obviously, Paul is making the point that justification is unmerited since it is not a work of man. By extension, there is not one component of the ordo salutis that is conditioned on human merit.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Obviously, Paul is making the point that justification is unmerited since it is not a work of man. By extension, there is not one component of the ordo salutis that is conditioned on human merit.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Concerning the "shame" God is causing to those who reject "Christ crucified"; they won't realize their error until the judgment.Even if the shame God causes is merely to satisfy himself ritributively (sadistjk)
Shame has a purpose. Namely that you recognize the wrong. There is a particular dissatisfaction,, how is that going to occur while simultaneously believing GOD is NOT RIGHT at all?
There is multiple instances, where all this makes sense as an appeal to reconciliation. But its not going to work with a model based by divine chance.
Romans 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Now If I were in Paul's shoes and a Calvinist, I know attempting to move Jewish rejectors toward God is a personal impossibility for me to accomplish. I need to be moving God, begging him to do something about it.
And then even there prayer doesn't do anything, I might as well chalk up the idea of even having to request to trust in God.
"The "most fertile soil" is the heart of the elect that has been cultivated by Holy Spirit in preparation of the gospel."
Then that is not totally depravity, would mean only reprobates are totally depraved.
My understanding is you have no capacity to seek after God AT ALL, until AFTER REGENERATION.
Remember Thanos? If you are picked then you are picked.
That is the total Gospel. If you are picked then you are picked, Smokem if you gottem.
God can't be swayed, he is not changing his mind. You either come MARKED or not.
Both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond. You got the MARK you are better then everyone else.
That doesn't fly with me.
You know canadyjd,
If the whole universe was elect and chosen but you.
Do you think I would be satisfied with a heaven without you?
“Up till then he had been looking at the Lion's great front feet and the huge claws on them; now, in his despair, he looked up at its face. What he saw surprised him as much as anything in his whole life. For the tawny face was bent down near his own and (wonder of wonders) great shining tears stood in the Lion's eyes. They were such big, bright tears compared with Digory's own that for a moment he felt as if the Lion must really be sorrier about his Mother than he was himself. "My son, my son," said Aslan. "I know. Grief is great. Only you and I in this land know that yet. Let us be good to one another.”― C.S. Lewis
Concerning the passage from Roman 11, the issue of total depravity isn't really there. There are some very interesting doctrinal implications there, but to go into any deep discussion would require another thread.
If you read the passage closely, however, Paul clearly teaches a widespread (though not total) inability of the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah. This is the "stumbling block" Paul mentions in 1 Cor. It has to do with an OT passage that states, "cursed is the man that hangs on the tree" They cannot accept, generally speaking, that their Messiah would be cursed by God.
No one seeks for God, unless God Holy Spirit intervenes in their life. That is the "drawing, convicting" effort of Holy Spirit.
Again, please quit trying to make this personal. I'll discuss scripture. I'm not going to talk about "what if you are not elect?" or things like that. I really only care about understanding scripture in context.
I do not hold to the Double prtedestination that would state God actively and in same degree and fashion chose to save some lost, and caused/forced the rest to go to Hell!
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
How do you view Paul's statements in Romans concerning the creation of vessels by God, some for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?
God used both pharoah and Judas for that distinction, but he did not force them "against their woill", but used what they wante to do!
What‘s a ‘woill’? And how did they use it?
Still haven't got that Gnostic Calvinist code down yet, eh?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Doesn't scripture say were raised up for that very purpose?
Yes, but the Lord determined to use their own decisions to be using them for His plans and purposes!
37818
Well-Known Member
There is an order: Foreknowledge, election (1 Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4; Romans 8:29). Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth being the call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14), being the message of God's grace which through faith we have been saved (Ephesians 2:8).
There is, indeed, an order; I just happen to disagree with yours. In the Reformed Ordo Salutis, foreknowledge and election are inseparable. 1.7 of the Canons of Dort describe election thus:
"Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation."
Foreknowledge simply means to know something beforehand. In the case of election, God knew the full number of His elect before the foundations of the world (Eph. 1:4), not because He foresaw any number of people choosing Him.
In sequence the Reformed Ordo Salutis is:
Election and Predestination
Atonement
The Gospel call
The inward (or effectual) call
Regeneration
Faith and repentance (conversion)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification
The Reformed Ordo Salutis has the prerequisite order you are calling for and is faithful to scripture.
The election of God and His foreknowledge is not dependent at all upon Him knowing/seeing us as accepting Jesus to save us, as God is the One that determines and is the One who brings us to salvation!
Dependent on your unregenerate acceptance to hear the entire gospel rather than refusing to hear any of it.
If you disagree I expect to hear a story about when you were BY FORCE, Forced to hear the gospel against your will.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I don't know of anyone who chooses to "hear" the word of God, but I know plenty of people who hear it, physically, and it doesn't make a dent.
That doesn't include the persuasion of men, such as, " If you do this, God will do that..."; just the quoted word of God.
Try actually testing an unbeliever with God's very words, and see what happens.
Go up and say to them,
" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." ( Hebrews 9:27-28 )
Tell me what the vast majority of them say back to you.
My parents took me to a Baptist "revival meeting" when I was 12 years old in 1978.
I was "forced" to sit and listen to a man preach God's word to me.
For a solid week, every night after school I sat and listened...but by end of the first ( or was it the second? ) night, I had already believed God's words sitting in my pew.
As I recollect, there was no time that I struggled with whether or not to believe on Christ...
I heard His word, and simply believed it as true.
I sat with a lump in my throat, sick to the pit pf my stomach, and very soberly listened to the words of God, because I knew they were aimed right at me.
I realized my sinfulness, and my need of a Saviour...no prayer needed, no decision was put before me to either "accept" or "reject" Him until after the preaching, when the "invitation" was given...
But I had already believed, and the choice was made before I even knew that I supposedly had one.
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I don't know of anyone who chooses to "hear" the word of God, but I know plenty of people who hear it, physically, and it doesn't make a dent.
That doesn't include the persuasion of men, such as, " If you do this, God will do that..."; just the quoted word of God.
Try actually testing an unbeliever with God's very words, and see what happens.
Go up and say to them,
" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." ( Hebrews 9:27-28 )
Tell me what the vast majority of them say back to you.
My parents took me to a Baptist "revival meeting" when I was 12 years old in 1978.
I was "forced" to sit and listen to a man preach God's word to me.
For a solid week, every night after school I sat and listened...but by end of the first ( or was it the second? ) night, I had already believed God's words sitting in my pew.
As I recollect, there was no time that I struggled with whether or not to believe on Christ...
I heard His word, and simply believed it as true.
I sat with a lump in my throat, sick to the pit pf my stomach, and very soberly listened to the words of God, because I knew they were aimed right at me.
I realized my sinfulness, and my need of a Saviour...no prayer needed, no decision was put before me to either "accept" or "reject" Him until after the preaching, when the "invitation" was given...
But I had already believed, and the choice was made before I even knew that I supposedly had one.
"I don't know of anyone who chooses to "hear" t"
I haven't read the rest of your post. I refuse to read it. I'll do it tomorrow.
37818
Well-Known Member
Our disagreement is a Biblical one. For one, sanctification precedes regenerstion.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Sorry to step in, but I'd like to work this out in my head, on "paper", just to see if I have it right:
" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )
Here I see that sanctification is involved, as well as belief.
They are the two things God has chosen the brethren, beloved of the Lord, through....not "because of".
"Sanctify" means, at least to me, "cleanse", "purify", "make holy", "wash from sins".
" They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. " ( John 17:16-19 _
Again, I see that sanctification is involved, but not when it happens.
" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23 )
Once again, it happens.
When?
" Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. " ( 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 )
I think I'm getting closer.
I see that believers ARE sanctified.
" Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. " ( Hebrews 10:8-10 )
Now I see it.
Sanctification for His people happened at the cross.
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." ( Ephesians 5:27-27 )
Christ gave Himself, so that He might sanctify His sheep with His own blood.
" We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. " ( Hebrews 13:10-13 )
Jesus, so that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered without the gate.
On the cross, His blood actually cleansed and sanctified His people in the eyes of God the Father.
Therefore, before a person is regenerated and called by the word of God, they were already sanctified in His sight.
So far as I see it, I agree with you, until such time as the Lord changes my thinking on it.
May God bless you.
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