God's Purpose Accord to Election

Concerning the "shame" God is causing to those who reject "Christ crucified"; they won't realize their error until the judgment.

Concerning the passage from Roman 11, the issue of total depravity isn't really there. There are some very interesting doctrinal implications there, but to go into any deep discussion would require another thread.

If you read the passage closely, however, Paul clearly teaches a widespread (though not total) inability of the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah. This is the "stumbling block" Paul mentions in 1 Cor. It has to do with an OT passage that states, "cursed is the man that hangs on the tree" They cannot accept, generally speaking, that their Messiah would be cursed by God.

No one seeks for God, unless God Holy Spirit intervenes in their life. That is the "drawing, convicting" effort of Holy Spirit.

Again, please quit trying to make this personal. I'll discuss scripture. I'm not going to talk about "what if you are not elect?" or things like that. I really only care about understanding scripture in context.

 

I do not hold to the Double prtedestination that would state God actively and in same degree and fashion chose to save some lost, and caused/forced the rest to go to Hell!

 

How do you view Paul's statements in Romans concerning the creation of vessels by God, some for honorable use and some for dishonorable use?

 

God used both pharoah and Judas for that distinction, but he did not force them "against their woill", but used what they wante to do!

 

What‘s a ‘woill’? And how did they use it?

 

Still haven't got that Gnostic Calvinist code down yet, eh?

 

Doesn't scripture say were raised up for that very purpose?

 

Yes, but the Lord determined to use their own decisions to be using them for His plans and purposes!

 

There is an order: Foreknowledge, election (1 Peter 1:1-2; Ephesians 1:4; Romans 8:29). Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth being the call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14), being the message of God's grace which through faith we have been saved (Ephesians 2:8).

 

The election of God and His foreknowledge is not dependent at all upon Him knowing/seeing us as accepting Jesus to save us, as God is the One that determines and is the One who brings us to salvation!

 

Dependent on your unregenerate acceptance to hear the entire gospel rather than refusing to hear any of it.

If you disagree I expect to hear a story about when you were BY FORCE, Forced to hear the gospel against your will.

 

I don't know of anyone who chooses to "hear" the word of God, but I know plenty of people who hear it, physically, and it doesn't make a dent.
That doesn't include the persuasion of men, such as, " If you do this, God will do that..."; just the quoted word of God.

Try actually testing an unbeliever with God's very words, and see what happens.
Go up and say to them,

" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." ( Hebrews 9:27-28 )

Tell me what the vast majority of them say back to you.

My parents took me to a Baptist "revival meeting" when I was 12 years old in 1978.
I was "forced" to sit and listen to a man preach God's word to me.

For a solid week, every night after school I sat and listened...but by end of the first ( or was it the second? ) night, I had already believed God's words sitting in my pew.

As I recollect, there was no time that I struggled with whether or not to believe on Christ...
I heard His word, and simply believed it as true.
I sat with a lump in my throat, sick to the pit pf my stomach, and very soberly listened to the words of God, because I knew they were aimed right at me.

I realized my sinfulness, and my need of a Saviour...no prayer needed, no decision was put before me to either "accept" or "reject" Him until after the preaching, when the "invitation" was given...



But I had already believed, and the choice was made before I even knew that I supposedly had one.

 

"I don't know of anyone who chooses to "hear" t"

I haven't read the rest of your post. I refuse to read it. I'll do it tomorrow.

 

Our disagreement is a Biblical one. For one, sanctification precedes regenerstion.

 

Sorry to step in, but I'd like to work this out in my head, on "paper", just to see if I have it right:

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )

Here I see that sanctification is involved, as well as belief.
They are the two things God has chosen the brethren, beloved of the Lord, through....not "because of".

"Sanctify" means, at least to me, "cleanse", "purify", "make holy", "wash from sins".


" They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. " ( John 17:16-19 _

Again, I see that sanctification is involved, but not when it happens.


" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Thessalonians 5:23 )

Once again, it happens.
When?

" Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. " ( 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 )

I think I'm getting closer.
I see that believers ARE sanctified.

" Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law;
9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]. " ( Hebrews 10:8-10 )

Now I see it.
Sanctification for His people happened at the cross.

" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." ( Ephesians 5:27-27 )

Christ gave Himself, so that He might sanctify His sheep with His own blood.

" We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. " ( Hebrews 13:10-13 )


Jesus, so that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered without the gate.
On the cross, His blood actually cleansed and sanctified His people in the eyes of God the Father.

Therefore, before a person is regenerated and called by the word of God, they were already sanctified in His sight.


So far as I see it, I agree with you, until such time as the Lord changes my thinking on it.


May God bless you.