God's Wisdom versus Earthly, Sensual, and Demonic Wisdom about Instrumental Music

[Ben1445]

"Zappa celebrated the tone of a “good ol’ distorted electric guitar,” calling it a “universe of sound that transcends the actual noise that is coming out. It just says something that no other instrument says. It has emotional content that goes beyond other instruments. And nothing is more blasphemous than a properly played distorted guitar. It is capable of making blasphemous noises.”

The avant-garde rocker went on to describe guitar tones as “extremely evil-sounding” and “smutty,” adding that he believed the best guitar playing matched speech patterns, not scales. “If you listen to a guy playing nice, neat scale patterns and things like that, no matter how skillful he is in making his stuff land on the beat, you always hear it as music. Capital ‘M’ music. If you want to get beyond music into emotional content, you have to break through that and just talk on your instrument.”

I get a kick out of some Christians who show animosity towards a fundamentalist who dares to criticize rock music when in fact the smart guys who produced it agree and brag that they know exactly what they are doing. The above is from Frank Zappa. If you want to read some other informative stuff on this just read Alan Bloom from "The Closing of the American Mind". Although coming from the opposite direction from Bloom, and from @Scripture More Accurately, Zappa agreed that rock music had a specific sound, a sound designed to communicate something, often evil, and that it had a powerful ability to influence the mind.

As Christians we tend to be naive and we shouldn't feel bad about that. I remember reading where someone was laughing at Christians at a wedding celebration all singing "YMCA", not realizing at all what they were singing about. My only point is that we do the best we can and try to use some discernment balanced with tolerance for other people's backgrounds and preferences. But I just notice that we seem quick nowadays to rip into a fundamentalist for not being tolerant of other music but don't seem to sense any need to be tolerant of the fundamentalist who has a different view. But that's the way "tolerance" works nowadays I guess.

I am aware of what the world is doing with music. Not only because I can see it, but as you have said, they say it.

But I am talking about the expression through the instrument vs. the physical instrument.
I have been in church’s where a guitar would never be played but people forget that it was the fill in instrument for the mouse chewed organ the first time Silent Night was played in church.
I will again give you that it was not an electric guitar, there was very little electric at the time. (Mainly used in lightning.)
It is the inner man that is judged. It is not whether or not you wash your hands.

 

[Charlie24]

This is not the best example of God rejecting music but it's one that I can remember where God rejects the music for a particular reason.

In Amos 5:21-24 God says that He hates their feast days and the burnt offerings and He will not hear their music and songs any longer.

The problem was the object of their faith was not in the sacrifice that represented Christ, their faith was in the ritual and not where it should have been. This was a long standing error of Israel that caused them many hardships with the Lord.

I realize that in some rock beat songs faith can be realized, the problem is that it won't remain there, it intensifies to the point of comparison with the Jews eventually losing the purpose in the object of faith. It not only effects the worship but also what is being preached that draws man to Christ. The atmosphere changes, but it's not immediately, it works slowly while progressing.

We've all seen it happen where over time the rock beat reaches a new level and slowly but surly the true meaning of the song and music are lost and God rejects it. Just the way it happened with Israel in their sacrifices.

Call it overkill, call it whatever you like, but we "nip it in the bud" and never give it a footing in our Church.

 

[DaveXR650]

Call it overkill, call it whatever you like, but we "nip it in the bud" and never give it a footing in our Church.

It may be overkill, and you may mess up and hurt some good people's feelings. But you have a right, (You or whoever is in charge) and a responsibility to use wisdom and keep watch over the flock. The problem is that there are multiple things going on in these situations. People who can't stand certain music may indeed be narrow minded or legalistic. Or they may be wanting to avoid particular temptations that plagued them before they were saved and they don't want to be near the old life style. I don't think the exact music style is a big deal to most people. Most churches mix traditional and contemporary music and try to bless a maximum number of people without offending anyone too much. But I have noticed that there is very little effort to encourage those who only like contemporary music to see the error of their ways and be more open minded towards hymns - that is only for the one's on the other spectrum.

 

[Charlie24]

It may be overkill, and you may mess up and hurt some good people's feelings. But you have a right, (You or whoever is in charge) and a responsibility to use wisdom and keep watch over the flock. The problem is that there are multiple things going on in these situations. People who can't stand certain music may indeed be narrow minded or legalistic. Or they may be wanting to avoid particular temptations that plagued them before they were saved and they don't want to be near the old life style. I don't think the exact music style is a big deal to most people. Most churches mix traditional and contemporary music and try to bless a maximum number of people without offending anyone too much. But I have noticed that there is very little effort to encourage those who only like contemporary music to see the error of their ways and be more open minded towards hymns - that is only for the one's on the other spectrum.

It started out with Christian rock concerts. Just as the Jews got caught up in the ritual, the performing of the ritual, Christians got caught up in the popular rock beat. Very few if any go to these concerts for a spiritual blessing, but rather a physical blessing, as maybe Bon Jovi or some of those other bands.

Then it started creeping into the Churches with their own rag tag bands playing the same stuff. It always intensifies from one single song to the next, until it reaches a point of rejection. But to each his own, I choose to separate my self from it altogether, I can't find any spiritual blessing in it, I've tried and it's not there.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are just blabbering and jacking people around.

You keep evading the question about which musical instruments are occult or evil. You must derive pleasure from being vague and repeating yourself over and over, imparting zero insights or wisdom, just baiting people to interact with you.

Your absurd, non-informative statements include: “it is not possible for ordinary humans to explain specifically and exhaustively what makes certain musical instruments sinful beyond saying that those musical instruments that have been made with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom are evil instruments. No human who does not have supernatural knowledge that humans cannot have apart from either divine revelation or involvement in wicked occult activities can explain to you in any detail how and why demonic things are demonic.”

Since you refuse to name a single “evil occult demonic musical instruments”, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet you think a kazoo, banjo, saxophone, or thumb piano is in this category.

How long will you play this game?

Your comments are harsh, unedifying, and factually untrue. You have made wrong statements about me and my character. You have falsely accused me of doing things that are unworthy of any believer who fears God.

I am not "blabbering and jacking people around." Although I can make a good guess at what it means, I do not even know for sure what "jacking people around" means, and I have no interest in finding out what that phrase actually means.

I am not answering any question that I believe would be unprofitable to answer. From much past experience, once a discussion like this is allowed to become specific, the entire discussion is hijacked into human opinions about many things instead of focused on what God has actually said.

It is regrettable that you appear to think more highly of yourself than you should when it comes to your ability to know and understand what things are truly demonic and why they are demonic.

Whether or not *you think* that I know what I am talking about does not justify the statements that you have made and the tone that you have used in these comments.

I am not playing any game. This subject is very important, and playing games is something that I never do in discussing any subject because I fear God and believe what he has said about our having to give an account someday for everything that we have said.

May God make His grace abound to you so that you will not make such unedifying and unfitting remarks in the future.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

But again, the unclean thing is unclean because of its use. There were images in the temple. Why was that okay? There were ornate works in the temple. There are religious groups that think that copying anything is making an image of something and is sinful. So all cameras would be used for wicked purposes. Missionary prayer cards would be sinful to use. We would be in lots of trouble.

There are absolutely things that I don’t and won’t own because of how other people use them. But that doesn’t mean I would be sinful if I ever saw, touched, heard, or even owned one.
Suppose you inherited an estate that had one of these things. Do you superstitiously never touch it? Or does “touch not” mean something more than “the outside of the cup?” Should we not be concerned with the inside?

No, they are not unclean things just because of their use. Whatever images and ornate works were in the temple were there because God commanded them to be made and to be in the temple.

Psalm 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I get a kick out of some Christians who show animosity towards a fundamentalist who dares to criticize rock music when in fact the smart guys who produced it agree and brag that they know exactly what they are doing.

I appreciate your desire to be helpful in what you have said. I would like to make clear that this thread is not just about rock music or any other kind of music from *American Christian* history. Evil musics of evil occultists have existed in all parts of the world long before there were any Christians of any kind in the US.

 

[Ben1445]

No, they are not unclean things just because of their use. Whatever images and ornate works were in the temple were there because God commanded them to be made and to be in the temple.

Psalm 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

The wicked things are the work of them that turn aside.
It is not what enters the man that defiles him. It is out of the heart that comes evil works.

I agree with you and with the psalmist that I don’t want the things that the world offers, but the things are not inherently evil. They may offer a temptation, but temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted and without sin.
We are in the world. We are not of it. The physical world is not the focus. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
There is no mention of physical instruments of any sort.

 

[Ben1445]

I appreciate your desire to be helpful in what you have said. I would like to make clear that this thread is not just about rock music or any other kind of music from *American Christian* history. Evil musics of evil occultists have existed in all parts of the world long before there were any Christians of any kind in the US.

And while this statement is true, it is not the music of the instrument, it is the music of the occultist.

1 Corinthians 14:8
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
If the instrument is not used correctly, it will cause confusion. But there is a correct use.

I’ll use percussion as an example. This is the instrument group that often gets the most attention in the subject.

They are used in the music that God said He would give back to Israel. A music of rejoicing.

Jeremiah 31:4
Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

But there are also some who say that Satan is described with the same.
Ezekiel 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

And because that is what Satan is like they want nothing to do with it.
But isn’t that the description of how God made him before he corrupted himself?
There is nothing wrong with the instrument. It is how it is used.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

The wicked things are the work of them that turn aside.
It is not what enters the man that defiles him. It is out of the heart that comes evil works.

I agree with you and with the psalmist that I don’t want the things that the world offers, but the things are not inherently evil. They may offer a temptation, but temptation is not sin. Jesus was tempted and without sin.
We are in the world. We are not of it. The physical world is not the focus. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
There is no mention of physical instruments of any sort.

Not true. What the Psalmist said he would not set in front of him was *a wicked thing.* You deny that anything made by humans is a wicked thing. In essence, that is a denial of what James teaches when he explicitly says that there is wisdom that is earthly, sensual, and demonic. Wisdom in the Bible has to do with the making of things in several passages. Things made with such wisdom are evil thing themselves.

Consider what God says about evil women who have intimate relations with animals:

Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Leviticus 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Suppose that an evil sculptor were to make a life-size, highly detailed sculpture fully depicting that vile act. That sculpture would be an inherently wicked thing that no righteous person would even be able to look at without having his thoughts defiled. No righteous person could justify in any way having such a sculpture in his possession in any manner.

With earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, wicked humans can and have made wicked things that are things that are themselves wicked.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

And while this statement is true, it is not the music of the instrument, it is the music of the occultist.

1 Corinthians 14:8
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
If the instrument is not used correctly, it will cause confusion. But there is a correct use.

I’ll use percussion as an example. This is the instrument group that often gets the most attention in the subject.

They are used in the music that God said He would give back to Israel. A music of rejoicing.

Jeremiah 31:4
Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

But there are also some who say that Satan is described with the same.
Ezekiel 28:13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

And because that is what Satan is like they want nothing to do with it.
But isn’t that the description of how God made him before he corrupted himself?
There is nothing wrong with the instrument. It is how it is used.

What you say from these passages does not establish that there is a correct use of *every single instrument ever made by man.* The reason you can say what you say about those particular instruments is because Scripture directly teaches that some musical uses of those instruments are acceptable to God.

There is no biblical warrant for extrapolating from what Scripture teaches about certain instruments to say that the same holds true for all instruments.

 

[Ben1445]

Not true. What the Psalmist said he would not set in front of him was *a wicked thing.* You deny that anything made by humans is a wicked thing. In essence, that is a denial of what James teaches when he explicitly says that there is wisdom that is earthly, sensual, and demonic. Wisdom in the Bible has to do with the making of things in several passages. Things made with such wisdom are evil thing themselves.

You are not understanding me at all.
There are things that I would not own. I would not go buy a Buddha statue. The item is made for a specific purpose. But if someone wanted to be ornery and put on on my doorstep, that would not make me a sinner, nor need it affect my own home. I would just throw it out with the garbage. I would not want to keep it. But I am not afraid of it. I’m not concerned that my neighbors might start worshipping it on my porch. I would just get rid of it and be thankful for the opportunity to have done so.
But an instrument is an entirely different thing. Baring any inappropriate art on them, there is nothing about any frequency of sound that is sinful.
There are vendors that I would support over others because of their clean and pleasant store vs. the store that you wouldn’t consider entering. There are definitely barriers to comfortable Christian living in modern music stores. I prefer to find the local schools band equipment store who knows they have a market and is selling cleanly advertised products.
I will set no wicked thing before my eyes is a proper thought. It does have applications to music. But not the physical thing, unless, as I said before, someone has defaced the instrument with obscene art.

Consider what God says about evil women who have intimate relations with animals:

Leviticus 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Leviticus 20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Suppose that an evil sculptor were to make a life-size, highly detailed sculpture fully depicting that vile act. That sculpture would be an inherently wicked thing that no righteous person would even be able to look at without having his thoughts defiled. No righteous person could justify in any way having such a sculpture in his possession in any manner.

You are right about the sculpture. I have not tried to justify that.
But you have yet to explain what we are condemning in the instrument family.
I’m at a loss to know what you are talking about. Not because I don’t think I know. But you haven’t said. It would be some kind of magic trick if I could figure out what you are thinking, without your telling me.

With earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, wicked humans can and have made wicked things that are things that are themselves wicked.

Name an instrument that fits the description.
You have named everything else.

 

[Ben1445]

What you say from these passages does not establish that there is a correct use of *every single instrument ever made by man.* The reason you can say what you say about those particular instruments is because Scripture directly teaches that some musical uses of those instruments are acceptable to God.

Tell me where it talks about and names the unacceptable ones.

There is no biblical warrant for extrapolating from what Scripture teaches about certain instruments to say that the same holds true for all instruments.

Why not?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are right about the sculpture. I have not tried to justify that.
But you have yet to explain what we are condemning in the instrument family.
I’m at a loss to know what you are talking about. Not because I don’t think I know. But you haven’t said. It would be some kind of magic trick if I could figure out what you are thinking, without your telling me.


Name an instrument that fits the description.
You have named everything else.

Wicked humans who engage in occult musical activities have made certain musical instruments that are intrinsically wicked because they are made from the body parts of dead humans. Regardless of any considerations about the unacceptable sounds that these instruments make, the instruments themselves are wicked instruments because they are the products of earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.

 

[Ben1445]

Wicked humans who engage in occult musical activities have made certain musical instruments that are intrinsically wicked because they are made from body parts of dead humans. Regardless of any considerations about the unacceptable sounds that these instruments make, the instruments themselves are wicked instruments because they are the products of earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.

I’ll happily give you that one without Scriptural support.
But you cannot deny the intent of the musician in its use.
The existence of the bones is not because of the people who are using them. God made them. People are using them incorrectly.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I’ll happily give you that one without Scriptural support.
But you cannot deny the intent of the musician in its use.
The existence of the bones is not because of the people who are using them. God made them. People are using them incorrectly.

God did make the bones, but He did not authorize in any manner that they be defiled, fused together in ways that He did not make them, and combined even with distinctive male and female fluids of human reproductive activities, as some wicked humans have combined them to make intrinsically vile, wicked, and abominable musical instruments.

It is undeniably true that wicked humans involved in occult activities have made musical instruments that are intrinsically wicked and cannot be used righteously in any manner by anyone.

 

[Ben1445]

God did make the bones, but He did not authorize in any manner that they be defiled, fused together in ways that He did not make them, and combined even with distinctive male and female fluids of human reproductive activities, as some wicked humans have combined them to make intrinsically vile, wicked, and abominable entities.

It is undeniably true that wicked humans involved in occult activities have made musical instruments that are intrinsically wicked and cannot be used righteously in any manner by anyone.

I know of no common musical instrument that is made in the ways that you suggest. If that information is true, which is entirely plausible, I suggest that you stop researching it and think about whatsoever things are true, honest, just, lovely, of good report, etc.
This is definitely an extreme scenario that you are talking about. I don’t think that these are the kind of people that I spend my time with for edification.
I’m not certain how knowing this information will help me to keep the church I am going to, to keep these things out of the realm of influence upon us. But I don’t think it would be much of a discussion were it ever to come up in our church. I’m pretty sure abuse of a corpse is still illegal.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I know of no common musical instrument that is made in the ways that you suggest. If that information is true, which is entirely plausible, I suggest that you stop researching it and think about whatsoever things are true, honest, just, lovely, of good report, etc.
This is definitely an extreme scenario that you are talking about. I don’t think that these are the kind of people that I spend my time with for edification.
I’m not certain how knowing this information will help me to keep the church I am going to, to keep these things out of the realm of influence upon us. But I don’t think it would be much of a discussion were it ever to come up in our church. I’m pretty sure abuse of a corpse is still illegal.

It is horrific that such things exist. I had no desire to share such information, but it was made necessary by the persistent denial of some Christians who in effect make themselves out to be wiser than God (I'm not saying that you are such a Christian). It is lamentable that it takes such kinds of information to get some Christians to finally acknowledge what is true: God knows what He is talking about when He prohibits His people from having any fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, including the musics and musical instruments of the kingdom of darkness.

Abuse of corpses is something that does happen openly in some other parts of the world. Both missionary biographies and credible, secular, published sources document such evil.

Knowing this information should help you to stand firm against the false arguments of some Christians who say that God's people are free to borrow and use the instrumental musics of all people of the world, including even occultists, because God supposedly made their musics. God did not make their musics; instrumental musics that have been made with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom are categorically off-limits to God's people for any use.

Knowing this information should also help convince you that it is not at all necessary that the Bible speak about something as being evil in order for us to know with certainty that it is evil. God never says that He has given us comprehensive information about the evil people, evil practices, and evil products of evil men and angels. In fact, in quite a few passages, He makes clear to us that He has not given us comprehensive or specific information about all that is evil and unacceptable to Him.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

So far in this thread, I have shown that with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, evil humans can and have made things, including certain musical instruments, that are intrinsically evil and cannot be used acceptably to God by righteous people in any way.

By way of principle, Scripture attests to this truth:

Romans 1:28 And even as *they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind,* to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, *inventors of evil things,* disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

God says that there are evil humans who did not like to retain Him in their knowledge, which shows that they have heeded ungodly wisdom instead of His wisdom.

In addition, and as a result of their wickedness, God has given such people over to reprobate minds. People with such minds do what is not fitting, are filled with all unrighteousness, are sensual to the core, hate God, and invent evil things.

Evil occultists in all parts of the world have been such people who have done such things long before there were any Christians in the Americas and long before any evil people had wickedly brought peoples as slaves to the Americas from other parts of the world.

Evil musical instruments and evil kinds of instrumental music have existed in all parts of the world through the evil musical activities of occultists who have invented evil things with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.

God's people are not in any way sinful respecters of persons or guilty of sinful partiality when they reject all such occult music of all occultists from all parts of the world.