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God's Wisdom versus Earthly, Sensual, and Demonic Wisdom about Instrumental Music

Is there earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about instrumental music?

  • Yes

    Votes: 2 66.7%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 1 33.3%

  • Total voters
    3

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
No one has to accept your premises to understand the arguments you're trying to make. I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say, we really wish you'd just get to the point.
I stated my point right at the beginning of the thread: #1


With their earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, wicked humans have invented and originated musical instruments and kinds of instrumental music that are categorically unacceptable to God.
 
Last edited:

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I stated my point right at the beginning of the thread: #1



With their earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, wicked humans have invented and originated musical instruments and kinds of instrumental music that are categorically unacceptable to God.
I think what everyone is trying to get at is what music do you think that churches today are listening to that we need to get rid of.
Now is the time to fling in the moral.
Otherwise you have lost us as much as you would by continuing to scold mountain dwellers west of the Appalachians that they had better not drink ocean water. West Virginians are not running out to the ocean to get a drink of water. It is pointless to tell them not to.
So tell us which stream it is that you think we should not drink from. We will at least know what you think. You will be able to say that you warned us, and we may be able to get some closure in this conversation.
 

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
I think what everyone is trying to get at is what music do you think that churches today are listening to that we need to get rid of.
Now is the time to fling in the moral.
Otherwise you have lost us as much as you would by continuing to scold mountain dwellers west of the Appalachians that they had better not drink ocean water. West Virginians are not running out to the ocean to get a drink of water. It is pointless to tell them not to.
So tell us which stream it is that you think we should not drink from. We will at least know what you think. You will be able to say that you warned us, and we may be able to get some closure in this conversation.
Having engaged in numerous online discussions about music over the years, I have vast experience that Christians routinely try to move discussions about music as fast as possible to discussion of musicological specifics instead of broader biblical and theological discussion that actually provides the answers that musicological specifics cannot provide. Once the discussion moves to debating musicological specifics, shifting the discussion back to where it really should be is very hard to do.

Until Christians are willing to acknowledge that there is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom specifically about musical instruments and their uses by humans, no amount of musicological information and discussion will suffice.

Do you believe that there is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about the kinds of instrumental music that humans play on musical instruments? If not, why not?
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Having engaged in numerous online discussions about music over the years, I have vast experience that Christians routinely try to move discussions about music as fast as possible to discussion of musicological specifics instead of broader biblical and theological discussion that actually provides the answers that musicological specifics cannot provide. Once the discussion moves to debating musicological specifics, shifting the discussion back to where it really should be is very hard to do.

Until Christians are willing to acknowledge that there is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom specifically about musical instruments and their uses by humans, no amount of musicological information and discussion will suffice.
But whether or not people recognize it does not change what reality is. So you can keep throwing out statements and then ducking the questions, or you can explain what you are getting at.
If you have already gotten to what you are getting at, please say so. The way you present makes it seem like you’re building up to something. As of yet, this build up has been very anticlimactic.
If you’re not going to produce the fountains of knowledge that are stirring you up, please just fill in the well and be done with it.
 

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
But whether or not people recognize it does not change what reality is. So you can keep throwing out statements and then ducking the questions, or you can explain what you are getting at.
If you have already gotten to what you are getting at, please say so. The way you present makes it seem like you’re building up to something. As of yet, this build up has been very anticlimactic.
If you’re not going to produce the fountains of knowledge that are stirring you up, please just fill in the well and be done with it.
I am not ducking questions. I am choosing to not allow the discussion to move to what is of much lesser importance and value.

You did not answer my questions about what is much more important. Do you believe that there is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about the kinds of instrumental music that humans have made? If not, why not?

To help you answer these questions, here is a brief summary of what I have already presented.

Indisputably, the Bible teaches that there is wisdom that is not from God that is earthly, sensual, and demonic. That truth is undeniably true.

I have also proven that wicked humans have made intrinsically sinful statues and musical instruments.

What then do you believe these truths teach us about the kinds of instrumental music that humans have made?
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
Having engaged in numerous online discussions about music over the years,

I think I see what Sam is attempting to do. (I know, the initials are SMA, but Sam just rolls off the tongue better.)

No doubt in his quest to slay the CCM dragon, SAM has come across the argument that since God created music, all forms of it must be good, and in themselves cannot be impure—just misused. So he comes up with this "drum", the inspiration of which springs from occultic practices, rendering it an "evil machination" of sorts. The machine, in and of itself being evil (according to him), the sound produced from it must also be evil.

One point on which he errs is the thought that God has commanded or even desires to be worshipped with musical instruments. Most will point to the Psalms. And therein appear to be some commandments to do so, but there are also commandments to bring animal sacrifices. So they have to be viewed through the lense of the OT economy. Their mention, though literal for the infant church under the law (Israel), are spiritual for the church come of age under the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

From The Treasury of David. C. H. Spurgeon
Verse 2. Praise the Lord with harp. Men need all the help they can get to stir them up to praise. This is the lesson to be gathered from the use of musical instruments under the old dispensation. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days, when Jesus gives us spiritual manhood, we can make melody without strings and pipes. We who do not believe these things to be expedient in worship, lest they should mar its simplicity, do not affirm them to be unlawful, and if any George Herbert or Martin Luther can worship God better by the aid of well tunes instruments, who shall gainsay their right? We do not need them, they would hinder than help our praise, but if others are otherwise minded, are they not living in gospel liberty? Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best of music. No instrument like the human voice. As a help to singing the instrument is alone to be tolerated, for keys and strings do not praise the Lord. With the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. The Lord must have a full octave, for all notes are his, and all music belongs to him. Where several pieces of music are mentioned, we are taught to praise God with all the powers which we possess.
...
Verse 2. Praise the Lord with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings. Here we have the first mention of musical instruments in the Psalms. It is to be observed that the early fathers almost with one accord protest against their use in churches; as they are forbidden in the Eastern church to this day, where yet, by the consent of all, the singing is infinitely superior to anything that can be heard in the West. J. M. Neale.
Verse 2. Harp; Psaltery, etc. Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaise. Thomas Aquinas. It was only permitted to the Jews, as sacrifice was, for the heaviness and grossness of their souls. God condescended to their weakness, because they were lately drawn off from idols; but now instead of organs, we may use our own bodies to praise him withal. Chrysostom. The use of singing with instrumental music was not received in the Christian churches as it was among the Jews in their infant state, but only the use of plain song. Justin Martyr.
Verse 2. (last clause). It is said that David praised God upon an instrument of ten strings; and he would never have told how many strings there were, but that without doubt he made use of them all. God hath given all of us bodies, as it were, instruments of many strings; and can we think it music good enough to strike but one string, to call upon him with our tongues only? No, no; when the still sound of the heart by holy thoughts, and the shrill sound of the tongue by holy words, and the loud sound of the hands by pious works, do all join together, that is God's concert, and the only music wherewith he is affected. Sir Richard Baker.

There is no commandment to worship with instruments. The premise being faulty, the reasoning from it is also faulty.

That doesn't mean every form of music is hallowed or compatible with the behaviors becoming of Christians, but that's a different argument.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
More importantly, where does it define kiss? (The BB smilie selection leaves much to be desired.)
 
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