God's Wisdom versus Earthly, Sensual, and Demonic Wisdom about Instrumental Music

[Aaron]

Not everything that was in the OT has been cancelled in the NT. Many things in the OT were not part of the Old Covenant that has been done away in Christ.

If one jot or tittle has passed, then all has been fulfilled. Matt. 5:18. You look in vain for the restoral of the Jewish priesthood, the temple, and the sacrifices.

Their deed to the land has expired, as has their religion.

What is going on now in the Middle East with the state falsely called Israel, is antichrist.

But that's another debate.

No, musical instruments were not just used "in the temple service to accompany the animal sacrifices."

Here you go again. I didn't say "just".

The NT explicitly speaks of the use of trumpets in synagogues:

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Jesus was not prohibiting all uses of trumpets in synagogues; He only prohibited using them as the hypocrites did in the synagogues. Although what Jesus said in this statement does not definitively establish that they were used in the worship in the synagogues, it does show that there were trumpets used in the synagogues and therefore raises the question of what the righteous did with them in the synagogues.

But they weren't used in worship or to accompany singing. Trumpets were used to signal, to draw attention. Not to play songs.

Most importantly, Jesus taught His disciples to pray that God's will would be done in earth as it is in heaven.

There's no marriage in heaven, dude. Matt. 22:30 Everything that follows from your faulty premise is a non sequitor.

Explicit NT statements teach that musical instruments are used in the worship of heaven and that such use of musical instruments was discernible by a godly human to be sounds that were recognizable to him as the playing of musical instruments that he was familiar with.

With heavenly worship as our pattern and with commands to use musical instruments that were not part of the Old Covenant, the use of musical instruments in worship is fully biblically warranted for NT Christians.

You have a very puerile understanding of the Scriptures.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

As do men.

And?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You're not reading what is written. You're reading into things to confirm your bias. We aren't talking about singing. We are talking about the making of music machines. And it isn't that they weren't mentioned earlier, it's who is identified as the father of all those who handled music machines, and the instructor of all those who fashioned brass and iron into tools and instruments.

This was in the antediluvian era, and much of the knowledge perished with that line which was of Cain. But as the population grew and began to specialize again, the knowledge was rediscovered...obviously.



See above.

Where did they come from? Did harps grow on trees? Did they find organs washed up on the shore?

Given in the law, which was only a pattern of the true things. They weren't made for playing songs. They were made for signaling calls to worship and alarms. They were not used in worship.

No, you are wrong. Jubal is not said to be the father of all those who handle all musical instruments---he is only stated to be the originator in some way of handling two of them (harp and organ). The text does not establish anything about there not being any musical instruments prior to that point.

In addition, the text does not say anything about his instructing those who fashioned brass and iron into musical instruments; you are reading that into the text. Tubalcain was the one who instructed people about making things of brass and iron, and the passage does not say anything about any people's making instruments out of brass and iron.

Gen. 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah.

As for where musical instruments came from, God certainly could have provided Adam and Eve (or any of their descendants who was a righteous person) with musical instruments of His making, just as He clothed them with coats of skin that neither of them made. Alternatively, He could have clearly directed them exactly what to make and how to make it, just as He did much later with the Israelites and the silver trumpets.

You are also wrong about the silver trumpets not being used in worship:

Numbers 10:10 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You have a very puerile understanding of the Scriptures.

Resorting to ad hominem is common when a person has no answer to what has been presented, but doing so does not help support your views in any way.

 

[Salty]

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[Scripture More Accurately]

The Bible is explicit that sounding musical instruments is not exclusively a human activity because no humans were allowed on the mount to sound the trumpet in this account:

Exod. 19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

Exod. 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

Exod. 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.

Exod. 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

Furthermore, it is untenable to hold that the trumpet that was sounded on this occasion was a man-made trumpet, as if supernatural beings only learned about musical instruments and instrumental music when humans got around to inventing them. In this way, we can be certain that humans have not been the ones who have invented or made all musical instruments.

 

[Aaron]

Resorting to ad hominem is common when a person has no answer to what has been presented, but doing so does not help support your views in any way.

Alright. Your agruments are puerile.

No, you are wrong. Jubal is not said to be the father of all those who handle all musical instruments---he is only stated to be the originator in some way of handling two of them (harp and organ). The text does not establish anything about there not being any musical instruments prior to that point.

Those are the major types. Strings and pipes.

But you haven't answered the question: Where did the instruments come from if humans didn't make them? Did they grow on trees? Were they found washed up on the shores?

And if the righteousness of the source matters, look at the antediluvian father of musicology. A son of Cain.

But music doesn't rely on machines. Machines are the invention of men. Music, like language, is a mode of human communication. Music is part of the language arts. A part of human nature.

The morality of a musical piece has to be judged holistically. Not by the materials used in the manufacture of the machines. There's nothing to any sound of itself. That's superstitious thinking.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Those are the major types. Strings and pipes.

Actually, no they are not. Percussion instruments are also a major "type" of musical instruments.

But music doesn't rely on machines. Machines are the invention of men.

It is absolutely not true that all musical instruments are the invention of men (see my post #186). You have absolutely no legitimate basis to say that the supernatural being who sounded the trumpet on that occasion at Sinai (Exod. 19-20) learned anything from humans or got his instrument from any human.

Music, like language, is a mode of human communication. Music is part of the language arts. A part of human nature.

No, at a minimum, you must say that some music is a mode of human communication---it simply is not true that all music is a mode of human communication.

In addition, your understanding in these statements is plainly not correct because the Bible explicitly speaks of languages of angels---humans are not the only ones who have languages.

The morality of a musical piece has to be judged holistically. Not by the materials used in the manufacture of the machines. There's nothing to any sound of itself. That's superstitious thinking.

These statements are mere assertions with no support.

 

[Aaron]

Actually, no they are not. Percussion instruments are also a major "type" of musical instruments.

Look at any symphony orchestra. Percussion is a tiny part. Not even used in many ensembles.

And they're there to embellish a work. Alone they don't make music.

 

[Aaron]

It is absolutely not true that all musical instruments are the invention of men (see my post #186). You have absolutely no legitimate basis to say that the supernatural being who sounded the trumpet on that occasion at Sinai (Exod. 19-20) learned anything from humans or got his instrument from any human.

*sigh*

Let's say for argument's sake that you're reading that right. You're not, but let's just pretend you are.

So what?

Any musical instrument in the earth was made by man.

No, at a minimum, you must say that some music is a mode of human communication---it simply is not true that all music is a mode of human communication.

Any language we speak is human. Any music we make, is human.

Anything you imagine about angels or devils is irrelevant, and not pertinent to the discussion.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

*sigh*

Let's say for argument's sake that you're reading that right. You're not, but let's just pretend you are.

So what?

Any musical instrument in the earth was made by man.


Any language we speak is human. Any music we make, is human.

Anything you imagine about angels or devils is irrelevant, and not pertinent to the discussion.

No, not every musical instrument in the earth has been made by man alone. The two silver trumpets were made by men who heeded direct divine revelation about how they were to be made and played by men who heeded direct divine revelation about when and how they were to be played.

In the same way, wicked occultists have made evil musical instruments that demons have directed them to make and have played them when and how the demons have directed them to play them. You deny these realities, but you have no legitimate biblical or factual basis for doing so.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

A description of a musical activity by cannibals in Irian Jaya:

While the men were preoccupied with the butchering, the women . . . took down drums . . . and began to dance back and forth . . . Sustaining a high-pitched rhythmic chant, they pounded in steady unison on lizard-skin drumheads glued on with human blood. Their heavy grass skirts flounced in time to the brooding thunder of the drums.

---From page 34 of the missionary biography, Peace Child by Don Richardson, 2005; published by Bethany House Publishers; ISBN 978-0-7642-1561-2

I wonder if some believers would deny that these drums were really drums and say that they are not musical instruments at all and that this activity was not actually a musical activity. Would some even go so far as to say that this account is a fake account of what some sinful humans have done in making musical instruments?

Can anyone who is honest, however, legitimately deny that such musical instruments and such musical activity are the product of earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about the making and playing of musical instruments?

 

[Aaron]

A description of a musical activity by cannibals in Irian Jaya:



I wonder if some believers would deny that these drums were really drums and say that they are not musical instruments at all and that this activity was not actually a musical activity. Would some even go so far as to say that this account is a fake account of what some sinful humans have done in making musical instruments?

Can anyone who is honest, however, legitimately deny that such musical instruments and such musical activity are the product of earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about the making and playing of musical instruments?

People aren't food, and drumming is not music.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

People aren't food, and drumming is not music.

This is not the right biblical response to the truth about the evil activities of wicked humans. When describing unacceptable products of sinful human creativity that were products of wisdom that was not from God, God did not do what you are doing:

Exodus 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

Even though He wanted their altars destroyed, the Spirit did not deny that the altars of wicked people were even altars at all.

To say that drumming is not music is to take a position that you need to defend biblically. If you cannot do so, you should be honest before God and admit what is true. If you do not do so, your understanding is going to be darkened.

 

[Salty]

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