God's Word to the Calvinist

[AustinC]

I consider my church Philadelphian, in which the word says....

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out.... - Revelation 3:12

If someone were to accuse me by saying, "But.... Rocky.... Your movement is no longer in revival...." I would have to bow my head and sorrow.

Your church is your church. It has nothing to do with the church in ancient Philadelphia.
What I observe in your posts is a desire to label everything and then judge by the label you have assigned. What you do is not grace filled, but instead it is legalistic and removes grace.

 

[rockytopva]

Your church is your church. It has nothing to do with the church in ancient Philadelphia.
What I observe in your posts is a desire to label everything and then judge by the label you have assigned. What you do is not grace filled, but instead it is legalistic and removes grace.

Exploring the wotd Grace....

1. Hope - Hope is something that we all live for.
2. Faith - The second spiritual constituent is faith, which opens the door to the temple. We must continue to keep our faith up, it is a lifelong thing.
3. Learned virtues - I Cor 13: Kindness, Politeness, Perfection, etc.
4. Charis: Greek for Grace.
5. Eucharisteo: Much Grace, Greek for gratitude
6. Charizomai: Well-favored - Kind of a mixture of love and hope.
7. Euchrestos: Greek for profitable... Let profitable thoughts rule the day!
8. Chairo: Greek for Cheer, "Cheerio Mate!"
9. Chara: Greek for joy... The joy of the Lord is your strength!
10. Chrestotes: Excellence in character
11. Charisma: Heavenly Graciousness - A charming character!
12. Chrisma: Heavenly Anointing The Holy Grail of Christianity!

Was John Calvin a graceful guy?

 

[rockytopva]

Your church is your church. It has nothing to do with the church in ancient Philadelphia.
What I observe in your posts is a desire to label everything and then judge by the label you have assigned. What you do is not grace filled, but instead it is legalistic and removes grace.

I call them Philadelphia times as we were minus the violence of previous ages. We also were blessed with ministries such as DL Moody, camp meetings, revivals, and the likes . Remembering also Fanny Crosby and the many blessed hymns of the time.

 

[Rob_BW]

I call them Philadelphia times as we were minus the violence of previous ages. We also were blessed with ministries such as DL Moody, camp meetings, revivals, and the likes . Remembering also Fanny Crosby and the many blessed hymns of the time.

Poor DL Moody, it seems he will forever be attacked on this forum for being "the first to make money off of the ministry." A preposterous and easily disproven claim.

 

[rockytopva]

Poor DL Moody, it seems he will forever be attacked on this forum for being "the first to make money off of the ministry." A preposterous and easily disproven claim.

I believe he did a good work. I believe the English had an issue with his and Ira Sankeys hymn book sales.

 

[Dave G]

My favorite author of the time was John Bunyan, who spent many years in prison for going against the state church.

John Bunyan, the "Calvinist"?
He spent many years in prison because he refused to give up preaching during a time that non-conformist preachers were not allowed in England.

I like him as well.

 

[Dave G]

Was John Calvin a graceful guy?

Again, rocky, I want to point out something...
Were the Roman Catholic-back authorities who killed William Tyndale, a "Calvinist" long before the term existed, gracious?

No.

Therefore, my best advice is that we all strive to obey the Lord's commandments in our conduct...
To seek peace and to follow it.

 

[rockytopva]

John Bunyan, the "Calvinist"?
He spent many years in prison because he refused to give up preaching during a time that non-conformist preachers were not allowed in England.

I like him as well.

I have read all of John Bunyans works, some 65 books, and have enjoyed them all!

Chapel Library

The only reference to who he was came from his Grace Abounding book, I believe, in which he said, "Some call me Anabaptist."

 

[1689Dave]

I believe the message to the seven churches in Revelation was Christs way of addressing the issues that were to befall the churches in time. And Calvin existed in Sardisean times....

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:4

Which was, I believe, Christs way of addressing the issues of eternal security..

You are adding to scripture to promote your agenda. It does not split the churches up over time. They were all then present.

 

[1689Dave]

I believe the message to the seven churches in Revelation was Christs way of addressing the issues that were to befall the churches in time. And Calvin existed in Sardisean times....

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:4

Which was, I believe, Christs way of addressing the issues of eternal security..

You base salvation on acting like a Christian which is hypocrisy. But if you are saved, you will do the things believers so because of the saved nature in the new birth. It's the nature of the New Birth to hear the truth and seek repentance.

 

[Rob_BW]

I believe he did a good work. I believe the English had an issue with his and Ira Sankeys hymn book sales.

Sure, but do you honestly believe that nobody in the 18 centuries of Christianity preceding him profited off of a ministry? It's an absurd assertion, yet you continue to repeat it in your devotion to this historical scheme you've adopted.

 

[rockytopva]

John Bunyan, the "Calvinist"?
He spent many years in prison because he refused to give up preaching during a time that non-conformist preachers were not allowed in England
I like him as well.

There is a huge difference! For one thing John Bunyan wrote nothing hateful towards other Christian congregations.

 

[Dave G]

There is a huge difference! For one thing John Bunyan wrote nothing hateful towards other Christian congregations.

Yet ( that I know of ), John Bunyan believed in ( at least ) "unconditional election", "total depravity" , "irresistible grace" and "the perseverance of the saints" which is commonly called "Calvinism" today.
All one has to do is read Pilgrim's Progress and some of his other works to see it, especially his own biography, "Grace Abounding To the Chief of Sinners".

My point?
There are both graceful and graceless people out there who profess Christ, rocky.

It's not their doctrines that make them ungracious or condescending towards others;
It's their flesh in which no good thing dwells ( Romans 7:15-25 ) along with the very real possibility that they may not be who they claim to be...

Christ's sheep.

 

[rockytopva]

I can follow a teaching as long as the leadership is saintly. John Bunyan wrote enough books to fill three large volumes, and I never read of anything suggesting violence or hatred towards other groups. The Anabaptists during the time I would also classify as a saintly people.I support the Ammish and Mennonites whenever I can purchase from them and they do good work... And still keep their saintly appearances!

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. - James 3

 

[Van]

God's Word to all mankind says we can harden our hearts by the practice of deceitfulness.

In the movie "Star Wars" we are told some can be "seduced" by the "dark side." God's word warns of the seduction by the pleasures of sin. They did not accept love of the truth, due to the empty deceit based on the traditions of men.

Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13? Because some in His audience could "hear with faith."
Why did God harden the hearts of the non-believing Jews in Romans 11? Because some could "hear with faith."
Why were the men of Matthew 23:13 able to be entering the kingdom? Because they were able to hear with faith."
Why did Paul speak to new Christians "as to men of flesh" in 1 Corinthians 3:1. Because men of flesh can also hear "milk" with faith.

Why in over 5 years has not one Calvinist accepted the truth. Because ... what does His word say?

 

[Dave G]

God's Word to all mankind says we can harden our hearts by the practice of deceitfulness.

Van,
God's word says where deceitfulness actually comes from:
" But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:" ( Matthew 15:18-19 ).

Our hearts are already hardened towards God, from birth:
" The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 ).

Why did Jesus speak in parables in Matthew 13?

God's word itself answers that:
" And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." ( Matthew 13:10-11 ).

Why did God harden the hearts of the non-believing Jews in Romans 11?

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. " ( Romans 11:7 )

Because ... what does His word say?

It says,

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:44-45 ).

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ).

The answers to your questions are all there, Van.
Study it deeply, and you will see.

 

[Dave G]

I can follow a teaching as long as the leadership is saintly.

Respectfully,
I find that I cannot.

I can say, that to me, whether or not a person is saintly is of great value...
But whether or not a teacher's teachings are in line with sound doctrine is even more valuable.

I also recognize that we, as believers, are all walking messes were it not for His grace and mercy.

For truly,
It takes the power of the Spirit to overcome our sinful flesh and to make His Son, in us, to shine through...
And it takes the power and patience of His Spirit to teach us, despite our being dull of hearing, His every truth.

John Bunyan wrote enough books to fill three large volumes, and I never read of anything suggesting violence or hatred towards other groups.

That's part of why I admire him.

What the Lord caused him to see in the Bible, I find even more admirable;
Simply for the fact that the Lord showed great grace to him in the midst of his hardships.

As for James 3:13-18...
I agree, sir.
I hold that no one who names the name of Christ should ever seek to war against their fellow man.


I wish you well, sir, and I take my leave of this thread.

May the Lord bless you with much wisdom and knowledge in your studies,
and may you always be reminded of His great grace towards you through the sacrifice of His Son.

 

[rockytopva]

I generally think of the Protestant Reformation as a good thing. In reading over Martin Luther and John Calvin you can find good readings. I also enjoy the Lutheran communion on the rare occasions I partake, and am sure that there are good Lutheran and Calvinist people. I had a book ministry at work in which some guy, after reading one of the testimonial books, wanted to get saved but not in my Pentecostal Holiness church. I had a friend I knew as Ray who was Calvinistic baptist, so I took him to the Calvinistic Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimonial film that Sunday night and my friend went up and got saved.

I think the Protestant Reformation as a good thing, however, Martin Luther and John Calvin were harsh towards those outside their congregation. I would have cautioned then not to get just as bad as the Catholics before them. And we should not be waging war with Christians over doctrinal issues.

 

[George Antonios]

I believe the message to the seven churches in Revelation was Christs way of addressing the issues that were to befall the churches in time. And Calvin existed in Sardisean times....

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:4

Which was, I believe, Christs way of addressing the issues of eternal security..

Eternal security is undeniably supported by scriptures.
Loss of salvation is likewise undeniably supported by scriptures.
Hence the long-standing disagreement between Christians (despite Acts 15).
The question is: what dispensation are you quoting from? Those seven churches are primarily tribulation churches, not church-age churches.
In the church age, salvation is entirely by grace through faith: therefore eternal security.
In the tribulation and the millennial kingdom, as it was under Moses' law, salvation is by faith and works: therefore loss of salvation.
- Cue the howls.

 

[Van]

Van,
God's word says [SNIP}

Yet another copy and paste of non-germane nonsense to avoid the topic.

If our hearts were already hardened, God would have no need to speak in parables, or to harden hearts of some Jews, and the men of Matthew 23:13 could not have been "entering the kingdom."

Calvinists seem unable to even comprehend scripture, and are certainly unwilling to address that scripture teaches their view is bogus.